Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

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fatwarry
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Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by fatwarry » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:02 pm

I'm looking at this piece in "Weiss for Guitar(Batchelar/Wright)", the ABRSM approved collection. In Bar 12 there's a crotchet note "C" followed by a small quaver "B" right next to it. It looks a bit like an appoggiatura in reverse - IE the small note follows the main note instead of being before it. Also it has no "slur" mark connecting the 2 notes. Is it played as a "pull-off"?
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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by Michael7 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:53 am

I put my finger on the "B" at the same time as playing the C, and then quickly release it (I think a hard "pull off" is too "in your face", and this approach gives it a sort of "Scottish" air). However, I'm just going with sound here rather than "learning"!

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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by Rasputin » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:00 am

I think the B comes first. If it's for a grade exam though I guess you really need to hear from a teacher.

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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by pogmoor » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:12 pm

I think Michael7 is right. The B and the C are played together, with the B released after sounding briefly - the C being given its full value. Weiss’s music has a lot these brief discords.
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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by Michael7 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:14 pm

Aha- Raymond Burley's suggestion in his "Weiss Anthology of Selected pieces for Guitar" (Schott) states "The two notes are struck simultaneously and the smaller note is released, or damped, immediately" - so, what sounds right sometimes is right!

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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:43 pm

Michael and pogmoor have it - the two notes are played together, but there is no real guidance as to exactly how long the little note should last. There is no slur of any kind.
In fact its in the Introduction, page 5 last sentence, though the Menuet is not referenced; it could have been clearer. "The 'crushed grace-note"'... is played simultaneously on the adjacent string to its main note, to create an expressive dissonance".
I've long been puzzled by them because they seem kind of random, and don't appear to resolve themselves as one would expect a dissonance - expressive or whatever - to do.
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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:21 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:43 pm
Michael and pogmoor have it - the two notes are played together, but there is no real guidance as to exactly how long the little note should last.
That's because the use of a grace note is entirely the invention of the editor - in cases such as this there isn't a classic "resolution" - it's a colouristic dissonance - on the lute the two notes are played simultaneously and share the same duration. I don't have that book in front of me but I do recall the piece - it's from Suite 13 (London) and the only reason for the referenced notation is the physical difficulty involved in achieving the effect in guitar tuning (though from memory I believe it's possible at position VII).

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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:29 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:21 pm
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:43 pm
Michael and pogmoor have it - the two notes are played together, but there is no real guidance as to exactly how long the little note should last.
That's because the use of a grace note is entirely the invention of the editor - in cases such as this there isn't a classic "resolution" - it's a colouristic dissonance - on the lute the two notes are played simultaneously and share the same duration. I don't have that book in front of me but I do recall the piece - it's from Suite 13 (London) and the only reason for the referenced notation is the physical difficulty involved in achieving the effect in guitar tuning (though from memory I believe it's possible at position VII).
I think it might not be the piece you are thinking of Mark, as there is little physical difficulty here, and the introduction suggests that described as 18/5 it would be suite 18 not 13?

But yes I think you are right that the notation is an editorial convention that has developed, and of course, all the ways we notate this repertoire is editorial, including choices over voicing, duration, the whole hog, it having been in tablature to start with...
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:47 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Stephen Kenyon wrote:Michael and pogmoor have it - the two notes are played together, but there is no real guidance as to exactly how long the little note should last.
That's because the use of a grace note is entirely the invention of the editor - in cases such as this there isn't a classic "resolution" - it's a colouristic dissonance - on the lute the two notes are played simultaneously and share the same duration. I don't have that book in front of me but I do recall the piece - it's from Suite 13 (London) and the only reason for the referenced notation is the physical difficulty involved in achieving the effect in guitar tuning (though from memory I believe it's possible at position VII).
I think it might not be the piece you are thinking of Mark, as there is little physical difficulty here, and the introduction suggests that described as 18/5 it would be suite 18 not 13?
Aha - sorry for the confusion Stephen - Suite 13 in the London manuscript is numbered 18 in the Smith/Crawford index and commonly presented in D ... in which case the fingering of that particular measure is a little more tricky ... I completely forgot that this edition is in C (despite the very clear thread title).

Having said that, it makes the invented ornament even more perplexing as an open B string would lend itself to a more lute-like texture.
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:29 pm
But yes I think you are right that the notation is an editorial convention that has developed, and of course, all the ways we notate this repertoire is editorial, including choices over voicing, duration, the whole hog, it having been in tablature to start with...
Circumstantial I know but the dodgy ornament suggests to me that perhaps the arrangement in C was made partly by trancribing from an existing guitar version (in D) which already contained it. The original has no ornament.

None of which helps the OP to whom I say - positively relish the minor second - execute the B and the C simultaneously and sustain them both for the full duration of a quarter note.

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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by DerekB » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:30 pm

ABRSM offer CDs with recordings of the set pieces. Can I suggest that the only "definitive" answer would come from carefully listening to the appropriate CD. By "definitive" I mean, of course, what ABRSM expect.
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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by Rasputin » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:09 pm

Well, I wonder if the ABRSM system is that joined up. I would be inclined to go with the teachers' comments. That said, my comment above that the B came first comes from a scribble on the score that will reflect what my teacher told me. I don't have the score here but if the B is hammered on from A, my muscle memory says play a unison B then hammer on the C leaving the fretted B ringing... that will also reflect what my teacher told me but maybe she changed her mind! I had misunderstood Michael as saying that the C came first.

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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by fatwarry » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:01 pm

It's a shame I didn't get these responses when I posted the question over 5 years ago! I can't remember now exactly how I finally decided to play it -
probably as an appoggiatura. Interesting though. Thanks guys
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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by Rasputin » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:28 am

That's hilarious. I didn't think to look at the date of the OP. I learned something, anyway.

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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:41 am

Rasputin wrote:That's hilarious. I didn't think to look at the date of the OP.

Who ever looks at the date?
Rasputin wrote:I learned something, anyway.

This may sound flippant but I'm curious as to what comes out of some of these exchanges ... what did you take from the various replies?

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Re: Weiss Menuet in C S-C 18/5 (ABRSM Grade 6 piece)

Post by Rasputin » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:58 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:41 am
Rasputin wrote:I learned something, anyway.

This may sound flippant but I'm curious as to what comes out of some of these exchanges ... what did you take from the various replies?
- that in cases like these, the notation may be an attempt to reproduce an effect that comes more naturally on the lute, and it may be worth going back to the lute music to find out whether this is the case and what the original intention was;

- that there is not always a consensus, and as long as you have developed an ear for the style it is legitimate to be guided by it - even if you are preparing for an exam;

- that music of this genre makes use of colouristic dissonances which do not resolve (my ear knew this, but I had not thought to put it that way or wonder about it). Here we are talking about resolution within the chord, not resolution to a note of the next chord. I mean to dig out some scores and see whether the first note has to be regarded as a stand-in for the second, as in the case of a grace note, or whether it might be standing in for another chord tone or might even be a chord tone in its own right (I believe that standard theory is wrong about what to count as a chord tone). If both notes represent the same chord tone, it will be interesting to see whether this device is used when that chord tone is not one that would normally be doubled.

One question that does remain is what the notation used would normally mean, if anything - in other words, is it a pre-existing symbol that was pressed into service here because, if taken literally, it would produce more or less the right effect, or was it invented just for this situation?

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