Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
Forum rules
IV Laws governing the quotation/citation of music


For discussion of studies, scales, arpeggios and theory.
Robbie Flamerock
Posts: 572
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:24 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:15 pm

guit-box wrote:Jorge Caballero. Check out around 2 min. You can freeze frame on his nails and see how the shape is optimized for his supinated hand position. Also, see m finger collapsing while i and a stay firm and then other times i is collapsing some.

Youtube

The degree of tension in a finger cannot be determined by visual evidence, but it seems to have more tension in it.

tungle
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:39 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by tungle » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:40 pm

Thanks, it's useful.

Johnny Geudel
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:23 pm
Location: Antwerp-Belgium

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Johnny Geudel » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:36 am

" When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger, especially the DIP" Confucius, 551 B.C.- 479 B.C..

CactusWren
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:50 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by CactusWren » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:21 am

guit-box wrote:
kmurdick wrote:git-box says: "Now take another person who gets the same instruction and takes it literally. They focus on moving just from the main knuckle as someone like Kanengiser teaches in his video. (with his arm/leg demonstration where he's locking the other two joints) or Tennant who talks about walking from the hip being an analogy of how to pluck and the MCP is the main thrust. -- relegating other joints to being just "helpers"

This is a very important point. If I were teaching now, I would say flex the knuckle joint and the middle joint together and then release the finger after it passes through the string. I wouldn't mention the "hooking" motion unless I saw his finger follow through too much which would mean that the student was stifling the natural release. Then I might talk about the knuckle joint segment popping up quicker. The more you know, the better you can teach. It may be true that correct appearance in a stroke doesn't tell the whole story, but an incorrect appearance usually indicates trouble.

I remember Tom Poore working on his rest stroke. His 'i' finger didn't look right in that it stopped moving freely when he increased speed. I mentioned that if he didn't work on getting the 'i' to pop up naturally, nothing good was going to happen. Of course Tom had made the decision to listen to the virtuosos (not hacks like me), which at that time seemed like a rational decision.
Are these videos of Tom still online somewhere? Maybe we can slow them down if they have closeups and see if slow motion exposes anything obvious.

Edit: Okay, I found this one of him. Well, I think actually for an old guy with a white moustache, I'd say he succeeded quite well. If I'm looking at how his hand works and comparing it to the 100s of other right hands, then I have a few observations.

1. I think he may need some more initial flexion momentum to the strings from the MPC joint
2. but then he definitely needs to transfer the work to the middle joint (PIP) because at times it looks like m is pushing through the string too much from MCP and sometimes i looks like it's doing the opposite, it's using all PIP and not enough MCP flexion.
3. maybe the most important thing he should do is collapse all his tip joints all the time on rest strokes. Everyone I've observed collapses the tip joints for rest stroke and you're putting a lot of undue stress on the hand if you don't
4. Then, he should consider what it feels like to release the string from the tip joint at the moment the tip joint is fully collapsed. I don't know if this is good or bad advice, it's just something I've been observing lately. Once the tip is completely collapsed, it's actually then in a very good position to add some flexion of its own. Pepe Romero talks about this in his book La Guitara

Will any of these things change his i,m rest stoke alternation, I have not idea, it's helped me some, but I'm also an older guy with grey facial hair, so it may be too late for us to play like Paco. ;-)


Youtube


Check out Pepe Romero's rest strokes on the 6th string. Okay, I know what you are going to say, he can't do rest strokes on the 6th string, but this clip of him playing the 6th string is a rest stroke clip. I can post the rest of it and he eventually goes to all 6 strings and he's doing rest strokes on the other 5 strings, so this is in rest stroke position. What's the most telling about this is that his "rest" strokes on the 6th string don't have MCP follow through, but they do have DIP and PIP follow through, and quite a lot of it. You can watch him momentarily stop on the string with the tip joint fully collapsed and then it appears that the TIP JOINT IS ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTING TO PLUCKING THE STRING!!!. Along with the PIP flexion too, of course. But, wow, this is only something I've just recently considered as a possibility and something I need to experiment with in my own hand. (Just to be clear, I think MCP is contributing flexion too, but the tip joint contributing to the pluck is something I NEVER before considered)

Youtube


Here's the full clip

Youtube
Tom is a good example of destroying your body's natural intelligence through dogma. He believed that the tip joint should stay firm--apparently because Shearer taught him that(?)--pointed out that concert guitarists played with firm tips (or so he believed)--and thus refused to work on the one thing that could possibly have helped his playing. He also argued with Philip Hii, an early proponent of middle joint movement and an advocate of flexible/sensitive tips, who can play circles around him and whose advice directly dealt with Tom's particular problems.

He got plenty of advice that would have given him a chance to make a positive change, but he preferred to rely on the wisdom that led to the bad habits in the first place.

Apparently he thought that the combination of doubling down on the things he already did and gigging with Jason Vieux would transmute his faulty patterns into effective ones.

Well, we all get to choose how we use our time. When he was hacking away at this failed endeavor, I learned the 20 Sor Studies and enjoyed myself and got to play beautiful music.

SteveL123
Posts: 212
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by SteveL123 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:44 am

This is my first attempt at learning tremolo. I've memorized the first 10 measures over the last 3 days and been practicing it slowly with a metronome. I've never video-ed myself before and I notice my whole hand is moving in this video. What is causing that? Could it be due to my bad habit of resting my arm on the guitar too much. Besides that, what else am I doing wrong? Am I using my finger joints correctly?

https://www.youtube.com/embed/dUk-tXQ2wAo

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dUk-tXQ2wAo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Last edited by SteveL123 on Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:55 pm, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
guitarrista
Posts: 827
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:00 am
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guitarrista » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:11 am

CactusWren wrote: Tom is a good example of destroying your body's natural intelligence through ...
What the hell is going on here? Tom is an active member. How about some manners? :contrat: :roll:
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Lawler
Posts: 878
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Lawler » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:34 am

guitarrista wrote:
What the hell is going on here? Tom is an active member. How about some manners? :contrat: :roll:
Well said.

Johnny Geudel
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:23 pm
Location: Antwerp-Belgium

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Johnny Geudel » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:47 am

"
A brilliant résumé by Guitarrista.
Alas, in vain, as he will now find out that, on internet fora, expertise, wisdom and diplomacy do not suffice to beat crackpottery.
"

Johnny Geudel
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:23 pm
Location: Antwerp-Belgium

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Johnny Geudel » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:53 am

Johnny Geudel wrote:" When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger, especially the DIP" Confucius, 551 B.C.- 479 B.C..

Mr Kite

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Mr Kite » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:12 pm

guit-box wrote:[Ana Vidovic is] collapsing her middle finger tip joint (distal joint) in every closeup shot. I really think collapsing tip joints, especially for that longer middle finger, is a critical and overlooked instruction. The more I watch great players hands, the more I see this.
I just want to clear a minor point up because higher up the thread there was talk of the tip joints hyperextending, i.e. going past straight. When you talk about the collapsing tip joints, do you mean hyperextending or are you including all cases where they extend, regardless of whether they go past straight?

guit-box
Posts: 999
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:49 pm

Mr Kite wrote:
guit-box wrote:[Ana Vidovic is] collapsing her middle finger tip joint (distal joint) in every closeup shot. I really think collapsing tip joints, especially for that longer middle finger, is a critical and overlooked instruction. The more I watch great players hands, the more I see this.
I just want to clear a minor point up because higher up the thread there was talk of the tip joints hyperextending, i.e. going past straight. When you talk about the collapsing tip joints, do you mean hyperextending or are you including all cases where they extend, regardless of whether they go past straight?
Not sure I understand. As far as collapsing or hyper-extending or extending or passively extending or buckling or giving or flex (horrible) or whatever goes, for my hand it happens when I stop holding the tips firm and I flexion the PIP and hold it there with MCP flexion. I see the amount of collapse based on the amount of PIP/MCP flexion used. I'd recommend watching all the videos and decide for yourself what terminology works for you. It doesn't matter what I call it, someone will take issue with it. Just read this thread on the subject and you'll see what I mean: viewtopic.php?t=80107&start=45. Btw, I think the above link and the additional proof in the current thread makes it crystal clear that some amount of collapsing the tip joints exists in every concert guitarist's rest strokes. -- even Paco de Lucia, who has devoted followers who say he never allowed his tip joints to bend backwards.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
Posts: 999
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:06 pm

CactusWren wrote:
guit-box wrote:
kmurdick wrote:git-box says: "Now take another person who gets the same instruction and takes it literally. They focus on moving just from the main knuckle as someone like Kanengiser teaches in his video. (with his arm/leg demonstration where he's locking the other two joints) or Tennant who talks about walking from the hip being an analogy of how to pluck and the MCP is the main thrust. -- relegating other joints to being just "helpers"

This is a very important point. If I were teaching now, I would say flex the knuckle joint and the middle joint together and then release the finger after it passes through the string. I wouldn't mention the "hooking" motion unless I saw his finger follow through too much which would mean that the student was stifling the natural release. Then I might talk about the knuckle joint segment popping up quicker. The more you know, the better you can teach. It may be true that correct appearance in a stroke doesn't tell the whole story, but an incorrect appearance usually indicates trouble.

I remember Tom Poore working on his rest stroke. His 'i' finger didn't look right in that it stopped moving freely when he increased speed. I mentioned that if he didn't work on getting the 'i' to pop up naturally, nothing good was going to happen. Of course Tom had made the decision to listen to the virtuosos (not hacks like me), which at that time seemed like a rational decision.
Are these videos of Tom still online somewhere? Maybe we can slow them down if they have closeups and see if slow motion exposes anything obvious.

Edit: Okay, I found this one of him. Well, I think actually for an old guy with a white moustache, I'd say he succeeded quite well. If I'm looking at how his hand works and comparing it to the 100s of other right hands, then I have a few observations.

1. I think he may need some more initial flexion momentum to the strings from the MPC joint
2. but then he definitely needs to transfer the work to the middle joint (PIP) because at times it looks like m is pushing through the string too much from MCP and sometimes i looks like it's doing the opposite, it's using all PIP and not enough MCP flexion.
3. maybe the most important thing he should do is collapse all his tip joints all the time on rest strokes. Everyone I've observed collapses the tip joints for rest stroke and you're putting a lot of undue stress on the hand if you don't
4. Then, he should consider what it feels like to release the string from the tip joint at the moment the tip joint is fully collapsed. I don't know if this is good or bad advice, it's just something I've been observing lately. Once the tip is completely collapsed, it's actually then in a very good position to add some flexion of its own. Pepe Romero talks about this in his book La Guitara

Will any of these things change his i,m rest stoke alternation, I have not idea, it's helped me some, but I'm also an older guy with grey facial hair, so it may be too late for us to play like Paco. ;-)


Youtube


Check out Pepe Romero's rest strokes on the 6th string. Okay, I know what you are going to say, he can't do rest strokes on the 6th string, but this clip of him playing the 6th string is a rest stroke clip. I can post the rest of it and he eventually goes to all 6 strings and he's doing rest strokes on the other 5 strings, so this is in rest stroke position. What's the most telling about this is that his "rest" strokes on the 6th string don't have MCP follow through, but they do have DIP and PIP follow through, and quite a lot of it. You can watch him momentarily stop on the string with the tip joint fully collapsed and then it appears that the TIP JOINT IS ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTING TO PLUCKING THE STRING!!!. Along with the PIP flexion too, of course. But, wow, this is only something I've just recently considered as a possibility and something I need to experiment with in my own hand. (Just to be clear, I think MCP is contributing flexion too, but the tip joint contributing to the pluck is something I NEVER before considered)

Youtube


Here's the full clip

Youtube
Tom is a good example of destroying your body's natural intelligence through dogma. He believed that the tip joint should stay firm--apparently because Shearer taught him that(?)--pointed out that concert guitarists played with firm tips (or so he believed)--and thus refused to work on the one thing that could possibly have helped his playing. He also argued with Philip Hii, an early proponent of middle joint movement and an advocate of flexible/sensitive tips, who can play circles around him and whose advice directly dealt with Tom's particular problems.

He got plenty of advice that would have given him a chance to make a positive change, but he preferred to rely on the wisdom that led to the bad habits in the first place.

Apparently he thought that the combination of doubling down on the things he already did and gigging with Jason Vieux would transmute his faulty patterns into effective ones.

Well, we all get to choose how we use our time. When he was hacking away at this failed endeavor, I learned the 20 Sor Studies and enjoyed myself and got to play beautiful music.
It seems like an fair assessment, maybe one unfair shot at the end, but clearly he made a video blog and it remains online, which means he is opening it up to comments and critiques about it. Sometimes the truth hurts, it's laughable to me that we're complaining about manners at this point. This thread and my other thread on "Romeros and tip joints" viewtopic.php?t=80107&start=45 are clear proof that all the concert guitarists are using some amount of passive extension in their tip joints for rest strokes. If Tom is intentionally holding his tips still, that is surely one issue that will hold back his success with rest strokes.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Mr Kite

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Mr Kite » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:19 pm

guit-box wrote:
Mr Kite wrote:
guit-box wrote:[Ana Vidovic is] collapsing her middle finger tip joint (distal joint) in every closeup shot. I really think collapsing tip joints, especially for that longer middle finger, is a critical and overlooked instruction. The more I watch great players hands, the more I see this.
I just want to clear a minor point up because higher up the thread there was talk of the tip joints hyperextending, i.e. going past straight. When you talk about the collapsing tip joints, do you mean hyperextending or are you including all cases where they extend, regardless of whether they go past straight?
Not sure I understand. As far as collapsing or hyper-extending or extending or passively extending or buckling or giving or flex (horrible) or whatever goes, for my hand it happens when I stop holding the tips firm and I flexion the PIP and hold it there with MCP flexion.
In the videos, I see the DIPs extend in most cases and hyperextend in some cases - I'm just not sure whether, when you talk about collapsing, you are only talking about the cases where they hyperextend. Say the DIP is somewhat flexed at the point of contact and then extends so that it is straight at the point of release - are you counting that as the DIP collapsing, or do you only count it if the tip is bent backwards at the point of release?

guit-box
Posts: 999
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:39 pm

I understand, all of the above. :-) It's difficult to be 100% clear, and I'm just watching and learning like you. I'm on the fence about DIP movement, I'm just trying everything and trying to gain control over my tips so I have the ability to use that skill in many different ways. I see the m finger fully and passively extended for a lot of rest strokes. less for free stroke. Maybe hyper-extend is a bad term since the dic def implies injury, which is not my intention. Pepe Romero uses the term "flex" which I find to be horrible...but what ya gonna do? Best thing to do is watch videos and come to your own conclusions and take anything written with a grain of salt. Believing your own eyes is always the best imo.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
Posts: 999
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:43 pm

This front angle is not the best, but I suspect this way of practicing rest stroke speed bursts with the loose tip joints is the right way to practice. Clearly he's using speed and moment and flexion force from MCP. If we could see it from a side view we'd better know how much PIP and DIP flexion is being used. I suspect that the recovering of the tip joint (DIP flexion) after it collapses may be an important element.-- the precision part of the release.

Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Return to “Classical Guitar technique”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot], Yandex [Bot] and 15 guests