Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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meouzer
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by meouzer » Mon May 08, 2017 9:13 pm

Please excuse my denseness, but can someone define the acronyms MPC, MCP, PIP, DIP, and any other related acronyms.

After a number of years away from guitar, I may start up again. I decided to emphasize rest over free stroke and was wondering about the collapsing of the tip joint. Delcamp has become very encyclopedic since I found this thread straight away. My initial impression is that collapsing the tip joint, as it moves through the string, is smoother. In particular, collapsing the tip joint can make it easier for the nails to move through the string since it sets the angle back from the perpendicular. From the original post, Jorge Caballero sometimes collapses and sometimes doesn't. So unless someone has guidelines, I take it that the consensus is that the tip joints should collapse unless you're Jorge Caballero and know when to keep the tip joint stiff.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Tue May 09, 2017 12:33 am

The terms for the joints of fingers. See https://www.google.com/search?q=joints+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

I think you'll find the largest compilation of videos of rest and free stroke with/without collapsing tip joints (DIP) right here in this topic. More with rest stroke and less with free strokes.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Tue May 09, 2017 2:08 am

Lots of middle joint movement in this player's index finger.

[Link removed for copyright reasons. Search YouTube for: Manus Noble - Hot Club Francais (Gary Ryan) ]

[Link removed for copyright reasons. Search YouTube for: Manus Noble - Fuoco from Libra Sonatine (Roland Dyens) ]

[Link removed for copyright reasons. Search YouTube for: Manus Noble - Sakura Theme and Variations (Yuquijiro Yocoh) ]
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Wed May 10, 2017 12:50 pm

I guess my last post didn't get on here so here it is again. One thing that Kontronakis teaches us in his video is that the relief supplied by the the rest string in the continuous rest stoke allows for the use of the extension impulse. The efficient free stoke won't allow for the extension impulse to occur. This is probably why continuous rest stroke alternation is faster than continuous free stroke alternation. Also (for you science guys), the rest string in rest stroke stores more potential energy than the ambient tension stored by the extensor muscles in free stroke.
https://youtu.be/lv7fr-uOgxM

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Larry McDonald
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Larry McDonald » Wed May 10, 2017 3:00 pm

Good catch, Kent.
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Wed May 10, 2017 4:17 pm

Thanks, Larry. I didn't think anyone was listening. Christopher Berg thinks that maybe pros can add a bit of an extensor impulse to the free stoke. Now we need find a guy who can do the same as Kontronakis only with free stoke. Perhaps the flamenco players might provide the clue. Can anyone play a one finger rasqueado, with just 'i', down and up at 145 mm (four notes to the click).

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guitarrista » Wed May 10, 2017 5:37 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 4:17 pm
Can anyone play a one finger rasqueado, with just 'i', down and up at 145 mm (four notes to the click).
Yes, that's not very fast; I am sure all flamencos can do it. Heck, even I can do it. But why rasgueado specifically, as opposed to a rest stroke alternation?

In any case yes, I think flamencos use active extension which is a big reason why lightning-fast picado is their domain, so to speak.
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kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Wed May 10, 2017 5:47 pm

Uhhh.... guitarista, you are going to have to show me at least one example.

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guitarrista
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guitarrista » Wed May 10, 2017 5:49 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 5:47 pm
Uhhh.... guitarista, you are going to have to show me at least one example.
I think I will try to record myself tonight - just so it is clear - you mean i-down, i-up, i-down, i-up - per 1 click of a metronome set at 145bpm; i.e. four movements (two down and two up) per click. Correct?

I don't want to fish for youtube videos of some flamenco doing this as it does not occur very often as a longish sequence.
Last edited by guitarrista on Wed May 10, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Blondie
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Blondie » Wed May 10, 2017 5:51 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 5:37 pm
kmurdick wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 4:17 pm
Can anyone play a one finger rasqueado, with just 'i', down and up at 145 mm (four notes to the click).
Yes, that's not very fast; I am sure all flamencos can do it. Heck, even I can do it. But why rasgueado specifically, as opposed to a rest stroke alternation?
Yeah no problem, just tried it at 170.

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Wed May 10, 2017 7:56 pm

Yes, 145 is slow for i finger up and down. Just had a go at 180, no problem for about 10 secs then fatigue sets in.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed May 10, 2017 9:04 pm

If a guitarist can do single finger up & down (145-180 4 notes per click), and that same guitarist cannot player faster than half that tempo with single finger plucking (rest or free stroke), doesn't that imply that active extension is not an impediment to playing fast? (rasgueado is clearly active extension)
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Wed May 10, 2017 11:17 pm

I just tried it and it's not hard. If I do it on one string it tends to tire out, but I could see where it could indicate that Berg might be right when he said that virtuosos might throw a bit of extension into free stroke. The only problem I see is that using a natural release would avoid the extending of one finger while the other finger flexes problem. Also, when I use the the extensors, the 'i' finger is hitting the string on the way back. This is a far less complex motion than the actual 'i' free stroke. I think the limiting factor in free stroke is still how fast you can play a repeated i or m finger continuously. If that speed is say 150 (two sounds per click), then you can alternate i and m no faster than than 150 mm (four notes per click).

To answer git-box more explicitly, the rasqueado movement is the pendulum movement which most of us can agree cannot be used in an efficient free stroke. So maybe the resqueado model cannot be used to explain rest stroke either. In other words, I have clouded the issue. Sorry.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu May 11, 2017 3:40 am

There are many great players whose technique is based on "feel" or "sensations" and of course that's fine if that works for them. They often describe what's going on in simple terms like "play from the big knuckle" or "flex all the joints together" or "push through the string from the big knuckle" but what's really happening is much more complex than that. There's a firing order to the joints extending or flexing where at times the joints are flexing simultaneously or extending simultaneously and at other times they are flexing while extending. Then there's the moment when a joint is changing directions where it is standing still. We'd like to believe that a complex system can be described in simple terms, and sometimes that is all a student needs to succeed, but that doesn't change the fact that the movements are more complex than is typically taught or can even be seen in real time.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Thu May 11, 2017 12:53 pm

Sorry, I had the names of the joints wrong. I'll use KJS = knuckle joint segment, MJS = middle joint segment and TJS = tip joint segment.

git-box says: "There's a firing order to the joints extending or flexing where at times the joints are flexing simultaneously or extending simultaneously and at other times they are flexing while extending. Then there's the moment when a joint is changing directions where it is standing still. We'd like to believe that a complex system can be described in simple terms, and sometimes that is all a student needs to succeed, but that doesn't change the fact that the movements are more complex than is typically taught or can even be seen in real time"

Ain't that the truth. I don't think anyone has mentioned this (they might have), but if the initial flexion phase didn't come primarily the KJS, the finger tip would miss the string. At some point the KJS must be stationary - probably immediately after the tip is through the string. At some point the MJS must be stationary - probably just at the instant that the KJS begins it's next flexion. You would probably need some high definition slo-mo video to verify this. This is predicated on the fingers being generally in mid range at the onset of the stroke. Of course for rapid free strokes the flexion phase must begin before the KJS reaches its full natural extension. I'll go out on a limb here and say that the limiting velocity factor is that the MJS joint must make it it's full natural extension, i.e. it may be that you cannot shorten the MJS to increase velocity, again, I say this because the tip would miss the string on the next stroke if it wasn't in position. I'm just pulling this out of my a**, BTW.
Last edited by kmurdick on Fri May 12, 2017 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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