Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu May 11, 2017 2:02 pm

Here's a lesson on picado. Obviously this guitarist uses a lot of force from the big knuckle, more than most classical guitarists would use. It's a good lesson and he's an amazing guitarist, the only thing I take issue with is saying to "push through the string with the big knuckle". I interpret that to mean that the big knuckle is releasing the string by pushing through the string without assist from the other joints--aside from the tip joint passively collapsing. It might appear that way with the m finger, but the i finger clearly has a lot of movement from the other joints. There's always some amount of movement from the other two joints to release the string.

Youtube


The same player's rest strokes in slow motion. Is he just pushing though the string with the big knuckle or does this slow motion video show it's more complex than that?

Youtube
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Fri May 19, 2017 2:26 pm

She's definitely plucking by pulling away from the soundboard with the fingers (MCP extending while PIP flexion). He's doing the same only the movements are smaller.

Youtube
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon May 22, 2017 3:50 pm

There's an interesting assumption that rest strokes involve pushing through the string with the MCP (large knuckle joint) and that free stroke involves more PIP(middle joint). Not only do I find no video evidence for this assumption, it's not logical to think a professional would have two techniques for plucking the string when both require 10s of thousands of hours to develop. Every video I've watched of the right hands of concert guitarists shows me that rest stroke and free stroke are basically the same finger joint movements with the follow-through being interrupted in rest stroke.

Some players are certainly using a lot of large knuckle joint force for their rest strokes, but they still use some amount of middle joint flexion to release the string. As well as sometimes tip joint collapsing. Here are some observable truths about rest strokes:

1.If you see the tip joint collapsing, then the middle joint is flexing. The large knuckle joint does not collapse the tip joint, it's a conscious flexion from the PIP while the DIP is relaxed that collapses the distal joint.
2. If the MCP where pushing through the string (releasing the string) then when the hand reaches the 6th string, the finger would be seen moving towards the soundboard and perhaps hitting the soundboard. But this is not what is seen, you can see the finger moving from the PIP more parallel to the soundboard on the 6th string in rest stroke position.

Here's an interesting lesson by K Gallagher on the subject. What he's talking about is #1 from above, but he just describes it with different language "directing the finger towards the resting string" instead of towards the soundboard. A "psychological trick for rest strokes".

Youtube


By the way, I try not to post copyright material, but if any direct link is deleted, please visit my youtube page: User name Slow Moe. Everything I post is for educational analysis and is about technique. I will stick to just snippets from now on to avoid copyright issues.
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guitarrista
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guitarrista » Mon May 22, 2017 7:17 pm

guit-box wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 3:50 pm

2. If the MCP where pushing through the string (releasing the string) then when the hand reaches the 6th string, the finger would be seen moving towards the soundboard and perhaps hitting the soundboard.
Nope; not at all - you are still ignoring basic physics and are still latched on to a repeatedly-debunked claim that movement from the fulcrum of the MCP joint can only have a vertical (into soundboard) and no horizontal (along soundboard) component... Demonstrating once again that this thread has morphed from an open-minded exploration of issues (if it ever was that - I've taken your word for it) into a closed-minded, bullhorn activism for a particular view.
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Rasputin » Mon May 22, 2017 7:43 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 7:17 pm
guit-box wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 3:50 pm

2. If the MCP where pushing through the string (releasing the string) then when the hand reaches the 6th string, the finger would be seen moving towards the soundboard and perhaps hitting the soundboard.
Nope; not at all - you are still ignoring basic physics and are still latched on to a repeatedly-debunked claim that movement from the fulcrum of the MCP joint can only have a vertical (into soundboard) and no horizontal (along soundboard) component... Demonstrating once again that this thread has morphed from an open-minded exploration of issues (if it ever was that - I've taken your word for it) into a closed-minded, bullhorn activism for a particular view.
Not really - to say that the finger would be seen moving towards the soundboard is to say that the movement would have a vertical component, but not to say that it would have only have a vertical component.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guitarrista » Mon May 22, 2017 8:08 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 7:43 pm
guitarrista wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 7:17 pm
guit-box wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 3:50 pm

2. If the MCP where pushing through the string (releasing the string) then when the hand reaches the 6th string, the finger would be seen moving towards the soundboard and perhaps hitting the soundboard.
Nope; not at all - you are still ignoring basic physics and are still latched on to a repeatedly-debunked claim that movement from the fulcrum of the MCP joint can only have a vertical (into soundboard) and no horizontal (along soundboard) component... Demonstrating once again that this thread has morphed from an open-minded exploration of issues (if it ever was that - I've taken your word for it) into a closed-minded, bullhorn activism for a particular view.
Not really - to say that the finger would be seen moving towards the soundboard is to say that the movement would have a vertical component, but not to say that it would have only have a vertical component.
You have to read his other pronouncements on the same subject to get the full context. It is what he is claiming.
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon May 22, 2017 9:11 pm

Since the distance from string to resting string is so small and the initial impulse that moves the finger to the string is from the MCP (large knuckle) many teachers and players claim it's the MCP that is releasing the string for rest stroke, but this is incorrect. It's actually a two-step movement where the initial impulse from MCP is transferred to PIP (middle joint) at the moment the finger releases the string. It's hard to see because for these two reasons 1. the initial impulse from MCP tricks they eye at full speed 2. the short distance required to land on the resting string is hard to see, but it's still there, and it can be seen in all the slow motion videos of rest strokes that I've posted.

It might be easier to see a bass player doing the same movement because the distance the finger has to move from plucked string to resting string is larger.

You can see the middle joint involvement in releasing the string in this bass player's hand quite easily. It's the same in all bass player's hands as well as guitarists.

[Link removed. Search YouTube for: Right hand technique for Bass (Raking & Alternate plucking) - (L#37) ]
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Rasputin
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Rasputin » Mon May 22, 2017 9:21 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 8:08 pm
Rasputin wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 7:43 pm
guitarrista wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 7:17 pm


Nope; not at all - you are still ignoring basic physics and are still latched on to a repeatedly-debunked claim that movement from the fulcrum of the MCP joint can only have a vertical (into soundboard) and no horizontal (along soundboard) component... Demonstrating once again that this thread has morphed from an open-minded exploration of issues (if it ever was that - I've taken your word for it) into a closed-minded, bullhorn activism for a particular view.
Not really - to say that the finger would be seen moving towards the soundboard is to say that the movement would have a vertical component, but not to say that it would have only have a vertical component.
You have to read his other pronouncements on the same subject to get the full context. It is what he is claiming.
Fair enough. My take on it is that if what Guit-box is saying is right then there will be a marked change of direction between the point where the fingertip makes contact with the string and the point of release. It seems to me that there probably is, and that there is much more of a horizontal component at the point of release than during the part of the stroke when the string is being depressed.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Rasputin » Mon May 22, 2017 9:26 pm

On the other hand, I don't follow this:
guit-box wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 3:50 pm
Here are some observable truths about rest strokes:

1.If you see the tip joint collapsing, then the middle joint is flexing. The large knuckle joint does not collapse the tip joint, it's a conscious flexion from the PIP while the DIP is relaxed that collapses the distal joint.
Just experimenting on the table top, I can easily get my DIP flexing by applying pressure through the MCP with no movement of the PIP.

I don't understand how this claim fits in to the overall argument - you seem to accept that the MCP is applying pressure until the string is released, and obviously the DIP collapses before that, so what's the problem?

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon May 22, 2017 9:30 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 9:21 pm
My take on it is that if what Guit-box is saying is right then there will be a marked change of direction between the point where the fingertip makes contact with the string and the point of release. It seems to me that there probably is, and that there is much more of a horizontal component at the point of release than during the part of the stroke when the string is being depressed.
Exactly right, you can see it happening. Watch the Kevin Gallagher video I posted where he says exactly that -- only phrased differently. If you put a carbon fiber cast on your finger so only the MCP finger joint could move and you tried to pluck that way it would be no-go, you'd get stuck on the string just like Gallagher points out. There is a firing order of the joints, it's not one or the other, they all work as a team. MCP brings the finger to the string and provides some momentum and then PIP releases the string along with assistance from DIP.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon May 22, 2017 9:40 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 9:26 pm
On the other hand, I don't follow this:
guit-box wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 3:50 pm
Here are some observable truths about rest strokes:

1.If you see the tip joint collapsing, then the middle joint is flexing. The large knuckle joint does not collapse the tip joint, it's a conscious flexion from the PIP while the DIP is relaxed that collapses the distal joint.
Just experimenting on the table top, I can easily get my DIP flexing by applying pressure through the MCP with no movement of the PIP.

I don't understand how this claim fits in to the overall argument - you seem to accept that the MCP is applying pressure until the string is released, and obviously the DIP collapses before that, so what's the problem?
If you're seeing the DIP collapsing then what you're seeing is the phalange between PIP and DIP flexion towards the palm. It's the PIP flexion that's responsible for moving this phalange towards the palm, and the dictionary definition of a flexion of the finger is to move a finger segment towards the palm. Now, I've heard people argue that this flexion is passive or involuntary. Maybe, I'm not going to get into what muscles do what since we can't see them, they're under the skin, but we can all see the PIP moving the phalange towards the palm when the DIP is collapsing.

You could also argue (like Pepe Romero does in his book La Guitara) that the tip joint regains some strength once it is fully collapsed and then contributes some flexion of it's own. So, if I'm understanding what he's saying, the collapsing of the tip joint may allow the DIP to provide some of the plucking (releasing) of the string since once fully collapsed, it's now in a better position to flexion.
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon May 22, 2017 9:47 pm

Check out the middle joint movement in this virtuoso bass player's rest strokes around 2:15 min

[Link removed. Search YouTube for: JOHN PATITUCCI Bass Workshop 1 4 Right Hand Picking Exercises ]
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon May 22, 2017 11:16 pm

Check out at min 4:00 where he is playing a more perpendicular hand position. (standard upright bass position would be most similar to Ida Presti hand position for classical guitar). Clearly just like a classical guitarist uses the weight or strength of the arm or force from the MCP initially, so does a bass player, but the movements have to be larger and more exaggerated because it's a bigger instrument -- and somewhat easier to see because of it. It's obvious that his middle joints are very active in releasing the string regardless of how much force he's using from arm or large knuckle.

Youtube
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guitarrista » Tue May 23, 2017 12:14 am

Rasputin wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 9:21 pm
.... if what Guit-box is saying is right ...
He isn't. Physics says so.
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guitarrista » Tue May 23, 2017 12:36 am

guit-box wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 9:30 pm
Rasputin wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 9:21 pm
My take on it is that if what Guit-box is saying is right then there will be a marked change of direction between the point where the fingertip makes contact with the string and the point of release. It seems to me that there probably is, and that there is much more of a horizontal component at the point of release than during the part of the stroke when the string is being depressed.
If you put a carbon fiber cast on your finger so only the MCP finger joint could move and you tried to pluck that way it would be no-go, you'd get stuck on the string just like Gallagher points out.
This is incorrect as well. K Gallagher is wrong on this if you are summarizing his point correctly (haven't looked at his vid). You can certainly try very hard to have a weird hand position (e.g. MCP joint way up above the bass strings so you do get stuck on account of the movement being too vertical into the soundboard), but it a normal playing position where the projection of the MCP joint toward the soundboard is at or just behind/near the plucked string, there is no issue at all.

What actually happens is that as the string is pressed down toward the soundboard by the vertical component of the movement, the horizontal component makes the string first move a tiny bit horizontally with the fingertip due to static friction, then the string rolls around itself a bit while the friction (now rolling friction) between fingertip and string still holds, then that friction is overcome and the string slips on the fingertip, following the tip/nail contour, and is finally released. At the moment of release the angle is "deeper" for rest strokes and "shallower" for free strokes. None of this needs to (but can - for different sound colour, individual technique preferences, to accommodate hand, finger and nail anatomy and 3d contours, or to have additional free parameters for fine control over the sound production) involve more than the MCP joint for the sound production to occur as described.
Last edited by guitarrista on Tue May 23, 2017 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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