Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:50 pm

Lawler wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:49 pm
Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:54 pm
I also find playing from the middle joint rather tight. Maybe this is something that varies between players?
IME, knowing many excellent players personally from my studies and concertizing, it varies widely. One sure thing is that you're best avoiding dogma. Another is that classical guitarists are, in general, not very good at describing complex mechanical things - like how the fingers move when performing intricate and variable tasks.

I agree. If I buy in, I'm basically doomed to failure because my fingers won't do this.

Robbie Flamerock
Posts: 579
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:24 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:51 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:50 pm
Lawler wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:49 pm
Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:54 pm
I also find playing from the middle joint rather tight. Maybe this is something that varies between players?
IME, knowing many excellent players personally from my studies and concertizing, it varies widely. One sure thing is that you're best avoiding dogma. Another is that classical guitarists are, in general, not very good at describing complex mechanical things - like how the fingers move when performing intricate and variable tasks.

I agree. If I buy in, I'm basically doomed to failure because my fingers won't do this. And it might even lead to injury (it feels like it would when I tried it.

Robbie Flamerock
Posts: 579
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:24 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:52 pm

I agree, Lawler. If I buy in, I'm basically doomed to failure because my fingers won't do this. And it might even lead to injury (it feels like it would when I tried it

Robbie Flamerock
Posts: 579
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:24 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:52 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:52 pm
I agree, Lawler. If I buy in, I'm basically doomed to failure because my fingers won't do this. And it might even lead to injury (it feels likely that it would when I tried it).

Lawler
Posts: 895
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Lawler » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:56 pm

I've done that too... hitting the quote button when I meant to hit the edit button. lol

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:13 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:48 pm
But how is it an "option" if it can't be explained in the practical sense: how to practice it?
I just did explain it, and I also showed multiple videos proving that your claim (guitarists move the fingers as I describe only for fast things and they move another way when playing slow) is false. It's up to anyone who sees this thread to use their own common sense and intelligence to implement it. If they can't do that then maybe they should find a teacher to help them implement it.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Robbie Flamerock
Posts: 579
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:24 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:15 pm

guit-box wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:13 pm
Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:48 pm
But how is it an "option" if it can't be explained in the practical sense: how to practice it?
I just did explain it, and I also showed multiple videos proving that your claim (guitarists move the fingers as I describe only for fast things and they move another way when playing slow) is false. It's up to anyone who sees this thread to use their own common sense and intelligence to implement it. If they can't do that then maybe they should find a teacher to help them implement it.
[/quot

Give me a break.

Lawler
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Lawler » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:05 pm

guit-box wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:17 pm
This is what it looks like when you follow the knuckle joint (MCP) as the main thrust teaching that is so pervasive. I don't know if his hand is injured, but this is a mild version of how my hand looked after years of playing this way. Not good.
"how my hand looked" - so you're talking about focal dystonia. It's not known yet what causes focal dystonia. (And you don't know why Tanenbaum's right hand is like that. He's obviously injured. This is an inaccurate portrayal of "this is what it looks like when you...MCP...pervasive" No, this is what it looks like when you're injured. He had always had a strong and relaxed right hand technique. Check YT - Takemitsu if you like. But I digress.) Sorry about your injury but there's no way you can know that it was caused by any particular thing, even if you suspect that thing was your strict following of a dogma re how you thought your fingers should move. Congratulations on your growing recovery. Leaving the rigid approach to the right hand no doubt was significant but what worked specifically for you might not work for another, as one can see when reading accounts of others' recoveries.

I changed to right hand lute technique in my classical guitar playing for several years and saw my dystonic symptoms all but disappear. Was my focal dystonia problem caused by the fact that I didn't play that way from the beginning at age 5? Certainly not. I had a flexible, relaxed technique originally. In fact, for years now I've been playing with my original, traditional hand position again. Perhaps this FD issue is a bit like the Hawthorne effect in business management science, where in some situations ANY change tends to make for an improvement in the performance of people being observed in a study.

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Blondie
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Blondie » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:55 am

Lawler wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:05 pm
Perhaps this FD issue is a bit like the Hawthorne effect in business management science, where in some situations ANY change tends to make for an improvement in the performance of people being observed in a study.

Youtube

guit-box
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Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:03 pm

Lawler wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:05 pm
guit-box wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:17 pm
This is what it looks like when you follow the knuckle joint (MCP) as the main thrust teaching that is so pervasive. I don't know if his hand is injured, but this is a mild version of how my hand looked after years of playing this way. Not good.
"how my hand looked" - so you're talking about focal dystonia. It's not known yet what causes focal dystonia. (And you don't know why Tanenbaum's right hand is like that. He's obviously injured. This is an inaccurate portrayal of "this is what it looks like when you...MCP...pervasive" No, this is what it looks like when you're injured. He had always had a strong and relaxed right hand technique. Check YT - Takemitsu if you like. But I digress.) Sorry about your injury but there's no way you can know that it was caused by any particular thing, even if you suspect that thing was your strict following of a dogma re how you thought your fingers should move. Congratulations on your growing recovery. Leaving the rigid approach to the right hand no doubt was significant but what worked specifically for you might not work for another, as one can see when reading accounts of others' recoveries.

I changed to right hand lute technique in my classical guitar playing for several years and saw my dystonic symptoms all but disappear. Was my focal dystonia problem caused by the fact that I didn't play that way from the beginning at age 5? Certainly not. I had a flexible, relaxed technique originally. In fact, for years now I've been playing with my original, traditional hand position again. Perhaps this FD issue is a bit like the Hawthorne effect in business management science, where in some situations ANY change tends to make for an improvement in the performance of people being observed in a study.
We don't even know if he's injured, I've never heard him say he's injured and/or if he has focal dystonia, but you and I can both see and hear his playing here and it seems so. I think this is the most recent video of him online, the ones you mention are older. I'd bet money he has focal dystonia, I've seen a lot of players with FD and it looks like it. I've also talked to several players who where taught to follow the MCP as the main thrust rigidly whose hands ended up shutting down. Nobody can say for certain what causes focal dystonia, that's true, but my experiences tell me that this model of playing can be the trigger for some. I can see he is over flexing the MCP into the palm, sometimes it seems intentional and sometimes it seems uncontrollable.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:12 pm

In this video of Pepe playing arpeggios, notice how forward his hand position is (moving the hand more towards the floor), the nail plate of his m finger is almost touching the first string when it's plucking the 2nd string. Also, he's prepping the pluck with the MCP (plant flexion pressure) but look at the index finger movements, it's the PIP flexion that triggers the sound, and there's no MCP follow through into the palm. Once the MCP brings the finger to the string and presses it, it's done, and its job at that moment is to extend and get ready for the next note.


Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:36 pm

Here's the above video slowed down 30%. You can see the movements easier at this slow speed and also the closeness of the m finger nail plate to the above string. The passive extending of the tip joints (DIP) is also interesting. I had originally thought this was only happening for rest strokes but many videos of concert players proves otherwise.


Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Lawler
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Lawler » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:07 pm

Blondie wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:55 am
Lawler wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:05 pm
Perhaps this FD issue is a bit like the Hawthorne effect in business management science, where in some situations ANY change tends to make for an improvement in the performance of people being observed in a study.

Youtube
Thank you, Blondie. I've seen this before and appreciate seeing it again.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:59 pm

This play only from the main knuckle dogma is like a virus that can't be killed.

Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:22 am

The supination of the wrist is useful and worth trying, many modern players use a supinated position for the hand. But he's continuing with the nonsense that there are only two options. 1. Play from the large knuckle and get a good sound. or 2. flexion the middle joint and get a clawing sound. It's more subtle and complex than this simple minded good vs bad description.

Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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