Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:29 am

This instructional actually is pretty good. (or at least better than some of them out there) I like the 3 camera angles, he doesn't just repeat the same main knuckle joint dogma, and his demonstration looks like an actual free stroke that concert guitarists would use.

Youtube
Last edited by guit-box on Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:53 pm

Kaufman is perhaps one of the worst youtube teachers I have ever seen. First off, he leaves out the most important aspect of free stroke which is finding a good position for the fingers in relation to the string. Then he talks about release and demonstrates an over follow through with no release, and he doesn't say anything about the tips. On the plus side, his stroke is correct when he speeds it up; he just doesn't understand what he is doing.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:26 am

For everything Isbin does with the right hand, whether it's fast or slow or forte or piano, rest stroke or free stroke, you'll see the middle joint(PIP) flexing a lot while the large knuckle joint (MCP) is extending. Everyone is doing this more or less, it's the correct right hand technique.


Youtube


Her movements and reaching are wider than some, but the general principal of moving the joints in opposite directions is true for all players I've seen. Certainly her sound is brighter and others play with a darker sound, but those things are all variable by having different nail shapes or varying the angle of attack or perhaps more MCP pushing before pulling(PIP flexion). Or some can get away with less MPC extension.--see Barrueco's hand. But none of these things changes the basic movements from one hand to the next.


Youtube
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:11 pm

The movements of Manuel Barrueco's right hand in the first video are fundamentally the same as the movements of Sharon Isbin's hand in the second video. The orbit of his finger uses a smaller radius, but both fingers move as follows:

1. The finger tip is brought to the string by lengthening the finger. (The MCP flexes while the PIP extends)
2. This movement continues some as the finger contacts the string. Then while the finger is touching the string, the PIP/middle joint begins to change direction from extension to flexion. At this very small moment all joints are flexing together, but on the overall timeline this moment is small and the movement is mostly static.
3. Then as the finger continues to slide on the string the MCP/large knuckle also begins to change direction from flexion to extension and as the string is released (the moment the note is sounded or the string is plucked) the joints are now moving in opposite directions again -- only it's MCP extension while PIP flexes.
4. When the finger has moved as far from the string as it is going to, there is a very small moment where first the PIP begins to extend and all joints are now extending together, but then the MCP also changes direction and we're back step 1.

If there is relax moment (as in the play-relex technique) it's in step 1. where gravity is assisting the joints to drop down on the string, but I believe that any assist gained from releasing muscular tension or gravity or "not doing" is accompanied by some muscular effort to bring the finger to the string quickly and plant for the next note.

Manuel B slow motion

Youtube


Sharon I slow motion

Youtube
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kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:34 pm

I believe that Isbin's fingers are often over extended and it has held her back. The reason Baruecco's fingers have a smaller orbit is that the the relationship of his fingers to the strings allow for a more efficient movement. He was taught to do this by Shearer. When he first started studying with Shearer his positioning was at least as bad as Isbin's

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:39 pm

If you notice in the Waltz video, which relies on free stroke, Isbin has almost no sound at all.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:07 am

kmurdick wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:34 pm
I believe that Isbin's fingers are often over extended and it has held her back. The reason Baruecco's fingers have a smaller orbit is that the the relationship of his fingers to the strings allow for a more efficient movement. He was taught to do this by Shearer. When he first started studying with Shearer his positioning was at least as bad as Isbin's
Highly doubtful. He says very clearly in a podcast that you can listen to on his website that the free stroke Shearer was teaching him was not the sound he wanted. He goes on to say that inadvertently forced him to develop his own concept and technique for free stroke. (because he disliked the sound Shearer's students were getting while following his advice)
Last edited by guit-box on Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:11 am

He's using a flamenco approach to tone and fingernail shapes, but even so, he clearly shows how you can still "hook" the string using more PIP flexion and create a good tone. His technique for both versions is basically the same, but the angle of attack is different. I can do the same, using longer and more smoothly ramped nails and get an extremely round and loud sound. -- much more than he demonstrates. Still, it makes a good point about how puling upward with the finger does not mean it will necessarily be a bad sound, it has to be done correctly

Youtube
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:26 am

Here is the definitive video on classical guitar technique. If you watch only one video, this is it!

Youtube
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:41 am

An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:58 pm

git-box says: "Highly doubtful. He says very clearly in a podcast that you can listen to on his website that the free stroke Shearer was teaching him was not the sound he wanted"

The above may be true, but I was there. His tone tone was awful when he started and he did learn better positioning when he studied with Shearer. I think Shearer's idea of the tight finger tips was probably not right for Barrueco. That's the tone he didn't like.

CactusWren
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by CactusWren » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:42 am

guit-box wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:26 am
Here is the definitive video on classical guitar technique. If you watch only one video, this is it!

Youtube
Love that little girl! Haven't seen that vid in years. So amazing that those little hands could achieve so much on a full-sized instruments. She must be all grown by now. Kansahamnida.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:45 pm

git-box says "1)The finger tip is brought to the string by lengthening the finger. (The MCP flexes while the PIP extends)

That sound a bit extreme to me. When I see the slo-mo videos, I just see that the timing of the knuckle joint and the middle joints are not synchronized. It is not known which part of the stroke is the relaxed portion (the portion that gives relief) and it could be the entire extension of both joints is just the finger returning to equilibrium. In which case maybe you shouldn't be consciously extending the the middle while flexing the knuckle joint. Or maybe you should. With my fingers, this happens without even trying - it just happens. It is the only way I can repeat an 'i' finger at 140 mm (two notes to the click)

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:59 pm

Just to add a bit to my last post. The argument against the the natural return is that it wouldn't return fast enough if you had to depend on ambient tension to do all the extending. But maybe it would if the two main joints were timed differently. The knuckle joint begins it extension before the middle joint finishes its flexion, and then the knuckle joint starts it flexion before the middle joint finishes its extension. Remember, it is not incumbent on either joint to complete its full natural extension before beginning its flexion, you can cut that extension off without causing undo tension. This might be what allows it to go so fast.

Rasputin
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Rasputin » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:31 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:59 pm
Just to add a bit to my last post. The argument against the the natural return is that it wouldn't return fast enough if you had to depend on ambient tension to do all the extending.
Well that was one point against, but I seem to remember others - two of them were that it wouldn't go far enough, and that it isn't very plausible that a body provided with pairs of opposing muscles should rely on one side to do all the work and use the other side as an elastic band.

I would have thought the way to get the fastest return might be to pre-tension the flexor, in which case you would effectively be pushing against a fatter elastic band, making the extension of the MCP harder and slower going, but you'd get a faster rebound. This would mean giving a much bigger share of the work to a very small muscle, which strikes me as implausible. It might give you a faster rebound, but this would come at the cost of a slower plant and I doubt the stroke would be faster overall. Anyway, we will never find out whether this is going on by introspection or by looking at videos - we would need to monitor the muscles themselves.
But maybe it would if the two main joints were timed differently. The knuckle joint begins it extension before the middle joint finishes its flexion, and then the knuckle joint starts it flexion before the middle joint finishes its extension. Remember, it is not incumbent on either joint to complete its full natural extension before beginning its flexion, you can cut that extension off without causing undo tension. This might be what allows it to go so fast.
I don't understand this point. The first bit sounds plausible to me - the return may well be faster if the MCP begins to extend before the PIP has finished flexing. I can't make any sense of the second bit though - you are saying that this timing is only possible if the extension of the MCP is due to a passive rebound rather than an active contraction? Why should that be?

Edit: I said "pre-tension the extensor" when I meant the flexor.

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