Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:35 am

Jérémy Jouve is so clearly pulling the finger away from the soundboard when he plucks. (MCP is extending while PIP/DIP simultaneously flexes). Every closeup camera angle proves it with 100% certainly but observe 5:40 to 5:46min particularly and slow it down. His preparation and plant is the opposite movement (MCP flexion while PIP/DIP extend)

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kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:08 pm

A passive rebound is a contraction, but it's a contraction of a different sort.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:27 pm

Jouve's video is very good, and it looks exactly like my 'i' finger when I repeat it at 140 mm. These videos really prove nothing as to when or if there is any relief in the free stroke. It seems logical to me that the natural release is responsible for some or all of the extension process. And if what I just said is true, I don't think one should should consciously extend (or reach or straighten) from the middle joint while flexing from the knuckle joint. Notice I said "consciously".

BTW, I'm am not a pro-planting guy. Planting is useful for learning certain things, but I don't think one should base an entire technique around it. The free stroke is one smooth movement and I believe it should be practiced as such. I think if you sent me a beginner, I could teach them the stroke that you see in Jouve's video in ten minutes because the most complex part of the free stroke happens naturally and needs no instruction.

Rasputin
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Rasputin » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:02 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:08 pm
A passive rebound is a contraction, but it's a contraction of a different sort.
Sure. That's what I was getting at by contrasting it with an active contraction.
kmurdick wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:27 pm
Jouve's video is very good, and it looks exactly like my 'i' finger when I repeat it at 140 mm. These videos really prove nothing as to when or if there is any relief in the free stroke.
I don't think the rebound theory means more relief. If it is correct, then the extensor of the MCP has to be tense while the MCP is being flexed by he lumbricals. If it is wrong and the return is active, then extensor is relaxed during the flexion phase but works during the extension phase, rather than just springing back. Either way it works for half the cycle. Equally, the lumbricals only work for half the cycle, but they are working a lot harder if the return is just a rebound, because in that case the opposing muscle is actively resisting them.

I think some of the videos do provide a few clues about the return. If you go back a few pages and look at Kyuhee Park's tremolo - especially her a finger - it doesn't look at all like a rebound. The rebound effect is being swamped by an explosive muscular contraction.
It seems logical to me that the natural release is responsible for some or all of the extension process.
I don't see how you could prevent the rebound from happening even if you wanted to - the issue is only whether it is the whole story.
And if what I just said is true, I don't think one should should consciously extend (or reach or straighten) from the middle joint while flexing from the knuckle joint. Notice I said "consciously".
I don't think so either (I'm not sure you should be consciously attending to any of these details of the movement in ordinary playing). I don't understand how this point relates to the release though. Also, I don't think you can equate conscious movement with active contraction. We don't consciously instruct all the muscles involved in walking to contract just the right amount at just the right time, but that doesn't mean that this is achieved by a catapult effect rather than by controlled active contraction. We are only conscious of a tiny part of what our brains are doing.
BTW, I'm am not a pro-planting guy. Planting is useful for learning certain things, but I don't think one should base an entire technique around it. The free stroke is one smooth movement and I believe it should be practiced as such.
I just needed a word for the part of the stroke where the MCP is flexing and the PIP is extending. I was also thinking that, for someone who believes a controlled plant is important, it might make sense to use a technique that limits the speed of the flexion but gives you a faster extension, which is just what pre-tensioning would do.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:37 pm

The correct movement that concert guitarists are all doing involves plucking by extending the MCP while the PIP/DIP flexion. Then the return to the string is the opposite contrary joint movement. Most all of the time the joints are moving in opposite directions and it doesn't matter if they are playing slow or fast. This video and the previous video have a lot of slow playing. -- the movements are the same.

Youtube
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:35 pm

His movements are small, but still there is a quick impulse from the middle joint that activates the string at the moment the string is released

Youtube
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:37 pm

A slow motion excerpt from the Goran K video above. The index, middle, and ring all make the same movements, it's more clear in the index given the reach. The finger is at its longest (straightened the most) when the string is touched, as the string is plucked the finger pulls away and then is in its most curved state.

Youtube
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:36 pm

Great closeups at 5:40min. At full speed it might appear to some that the large knuckle (MCP) is doing all the work. The MCP is very active to the string, but at the moment the finger arrives at the string the middle joint takes over the plucking. Slow it down to .50 and .25 using the youtube settings and it becomes clear.

Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:29 pm

git-box says: "Most all of the time the joints are moving in opposite directions and it doesn't matter if they are playing slow or fast."
ut
It's hard for me to tell if they are moving in opposite directions about half the time or more than that. But in either case, the stroke is the result of a very natural and continuous movement. The idea of trying to consciously imitate this movement would be risky for anyone. There was a time (40 years ago) when believed that the stroke was a bicycle movement and I practiced scales for months consciously making this motion. In the end it did nothing for me, probably because I was using extensor muscles within the stroke where they shouldn't be used. It may be that this stroke can never be learned except by feel. But maybe not.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:34 pm

It's interesting that he uses a lower wrist position for the descending part of his arpeggio exercise. Not my favorite sound, but he is definitely using a hooking motion for free stroke.

Youtube
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Johnny Geudel
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Johnny Geudel » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:48 am

Philip Hii:
" The art of virtuosity"
" The art of virtuosity for guitar"
EOF.

Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:41 pm

Guit-box is right. If you let your hand bounce just a little bit, this is what happens (the movement that he has been proposing). You can see it pretty easily if you play the i finger for instance over and over (iiiiiiiii). Yep.

CactusWren
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by CactusWren » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:35 am

kmurdick wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:29 pm
git-box says: "Most all of the time the joints are moving in opposite directions and it doesn't matter if they are playing slow or fast."
ut
It's hard for me to tell if they are moving in opposite directions about half the time or more than that. But in either case, the stroke is the result of a very natural and continuous movement. The idea of trying to consciously imitate this movement would be risky for anyone. There was a time (40 years ago) when believed that the stroke was a bicycle movement and I practiced scales for months consciously making this motion. In the end it did nothing for me, probably because I was using extensor muscles within the stroke where they shouldn't be used. It may be that this stroke can never be learned except by feel. But maybe not.
I agree with this, Kent. Good technique generally has a very natural look to it, and seems to "piggyback" off normal human movements. Those movements are the body's response to technical and musical demands. Attempting to imitate something based on a visual and then intellectual analysis (which which imposes two additional layers on top of an auditory/kinaesthetic basis, and one which may be in error) seems risky to me. Also, the good players did not do this.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:07 pm

check out this guitarist using classical guitar right hand techniques on many styles of guitar. I can't post a video because the delcamp moderators freak out about anything that's not 100% classical guitar. Here's his youtube page or search Matteo Mancuso if interested. He very much favors releasing the string with the middle joint, but so does everyone, just some will use more initial effort from the main knuckle joint

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVAE3R ... dt-0-idAUg
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:33 pm

Johnny Geudel wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:48 am
Philip Hii:
" The art of virtuosity"
" The art of virtuosity for guitar"
EOF.
Good stuff for sure, I have them all and have talked with him many times about right hand techniques. He's in agreement that the middle joint plays a much larger role than the traditional pedagogy. Philip Hi told me that he plucks with the middle joint.

I think he's onto something very important with his writings on "walking the fingers". The idea that the finger just reaches out for the string and the pluck should just be allowed to happen is interesting. Clearly it's a psychological trick, but a good one, to get people just thinking about reaching for the string and letting the pluck happen in a very light and relaxed way. He goes on to say that walking is different from planting.

http://philiphii.com/2011/07/walking-fingers-video/
http://philiphii.com/2010/10/walking-the-fingers/
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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