Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:07 pm

Check out what Jerome D is doing at 3:20min. He's recommending practicing staccato (nothing new about that) but watch what happens at the moment he plucks the string --the moment you hear the sound and milliseconds beforehand. It helps to set to 50% speed and zoom in on the right hand. Watch the a finger and notice how his free strokes show the large knuckle joint (MCP) moving away from from the string (extending) NOT pushing through the string as many guitarists will want to argue. If the MCP is extending at the moment the sound is produced (it is) then the plucking can't be generated by the MCP flexion, just the opposite, it's being created in part by MCP extending. Also PIP (middle joint) and DIP (tip joint) are flexion at that same moment and those three elements working simultaneously (along with a highly developed muscular coordination of them) are what allow him to play these scales so fast.


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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:56 pm

Check out 0:30min. He's very clearly extending from the MCP (large knuckle joint) at the moment the string releases. The MCP extension is an integral part of the pluck, which is the opposite of what is commonly taught.

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Stringlover
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Stringlover » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:43 pm

Thank you for sharing this. Many of the rules one hears and reads about seem to be idiosyncratic and not truly fixed in stone. After all, rules are made to be broken with the exception of some.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:53 pm

guit-box wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:56 pm
Check out 0:30min. He's very clearly extending from the MCP (large knuckle joint) at the moment the string releases. The MCP extension is an integral part of the pluck, which is the opposite of what is commonly taught.

Youtube
Bad example. It's Pimami arpeggio. The 'i' finger only strikes one in six times and it doesn't matter how it moves. The test for efficiency is rapid i and m alternation. The only item in your arguments that is in question is the degree to which conscious impulse is used versus a natural return to equilibrium. This cannot be answered by appearance alone. Also you have failed to explain why one can feel the flexion impulse but cannot feel the extension impulse. This does not mean you are wrong, it just means that you haven't proved your case. Also, no one (who has eyes) is disputing your description of the efficient free stroke so there is no point going over that again.

SteveL123
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by SteveL123 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:53 pm

Just came across this online lesson http://douglasniedt.com/techtiphowtomas ... emolo.html

HOW TO MASTER THE TREMOLO, Part 1 of 4:
Laying the Foundation

By Douglas Niedt

I haven't gone through reading the whole thing yet but it looks pretty comprehensive. He also talks about his conversation with Ana Vidovic about her use of pmim instead of the traditional pami. What do you experts think about Mr Niedt's tremolo lesson?

Johnny Geudel
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Johnny Geudel » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:30 pm

guit-box wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:56 pm
Check out 0:30min. He's very clearly extending from the MCP (large knuckle joint) at the moment the string releases. The MCP extension is an integral part of the pluck, which is the opposite of what is commonly taught.

Youtube
If that player is acting as you claim, then I am the prime minister of Japan.
It is rather that " You only see what you already believe to be true".
The oval trajectory of the fingertip is clearly explained in Philip Hii's " The art of virtuosity for guitar ".
As a final word on this topic: you have tried to discredit various virtuosos and pedagogues who are still active, you have only proven your
own lack of understanding.
Should we be surprised that they avoid a forum on which they are denigrated by people like you who have proven absolutely nothing, guitaristically speaking?

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:32 pm

Philip HI is absolutely correct, as is Pepe Romero that the finger tip follows an orbital trajectory. In order for an orbital trajectory to occur, the MCP has to be extending at times while the other joints are flexing. Everyone who plays well is moving their fingers in orbital or oval or circular trajectory. It's the players who teach that joints should only ever extend together or flex together who are incorrect, as are the teachers who focus all the movement from the MCP in a pendulum play-relax technique.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:47 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:53 pm
guit-box wrote:
Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:56 pm
Check out 0:30min. He's very clearly extending from the MCP (large knuckle joint) at the moment the string releases. The MCP extension is an integral part of the pluck, which is the opposite of what is commonly taught.

Youtube
Bad example. It's Pimami arpeggio. The 'i' finger only strikes one in six times and it doesn't matter how it moves. The test for efficiency is rapid i and m alternation. The only item in your arguments that is in question is the degree to which conscious impulse is used versus a natural return to equilibrium. This cannot be answered by appearance alone. Also you have failed to explain why one can feel the flexion impulse but cannot feel the extension impulse. This does not mean you are wrong, it just means that you haven't proved your case. Also, no one (who has eyes) is disputing your description of the efficient free stroke so there is no point going over that again.
The movement of the joints for a single repeated finger is the same orbital movement for me and for many people I've talked with. (ie the MCP is extending while the other joints are flexing). As someone else already pointed out to you, you don't feel the extension with the same active effort as you do the flexion because it doesn't have the resistance of the string while it's extending. It's just sliding upward off of the string and away from the soundboard, but the middle and tip joints feel the resistance of the string at the moment because they are pulling through the string to sound it. If a joint is moving a finger phalange away from the hand, it's extending, that's the definition of the word extend. If you think that repeating a single finger doesn't follow the same orbital trajectory as it does when playing an arpeggio, then show me a video of an accomplished player who does it that way, I'd like to see it. I've posted 100s of videos of finger strokes and all the good players are moving in this orbital trajectory. Of course there aren't many examples of single repeated fingers because that's generally not considered good technique, so you're kinda kicking the tires here with your contrived single finger example.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:42 pm

git-box says:"It's the players who teach that joints should only ever extend together or flex together who are incorrect, as are the teachers who focus all the movement from the MCP in a pendulum play-relax technique."

No one that I know of seriously believes this. If someone actually did this literally, they would hit the string on the return. The tip must follow and oval path. The surprising thing we learn from the 100 videos is the extent which this happens. Teachers who teach the "pendulum" concept, do so because it works. If you are playing an efficient free stroke, it feels like the joints are acting together.
Last edited by kmurdick on Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:53 pm

git-box says: "As someone else already pointed out to you, you don't feel the extension with the same active effort as you do the flexion because it doesn't have the resistance of the string while it's extending."

Sorry, I feel the impulse from the very beginning. I do not feel any impulse on extension. That may be my fault. It may be that these sensations are not reliable. My point is that there may (or may not) be more to know here. You should be careful here; you've made such a strong argument, don't blow it. BTW, a sure sign that you have made a huge contribution to guitar pedagogy is that it seems that the teaching community is not paying much attention to you. I have found that guitar teachers are a rather unimaginative group.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:40 pm

I'm interested in mechanics. How it looks is how it works. Extending is extending. If a given finger joint is moving its corresponding phalange away from the hand, then it is extending. Other than being reasonably relaxed when you play, very little concern about what your internal muscles are doing is needed. Use the correct mechanics to move your fingers and you'll be fine, but try to follow incorrect mechanics because a teacher or method advocates it is a dangerous thing to do, and unfortunately there is much misleading information out there in mainstream pedagogy.

Here's a slow motion of a hand shown from the pinky side. Notice how the MCP (large knuckle joint) is moving away from the hand at the moment the string is released and the note sounded. That joint is in no way pushing through the string at the moment of release, it's doing the exact opposite. However, middle joint and tip joints ARE flexing at that moment into the palm and quite a lot. Look at how far the a and c fingers curl into the palm-- almost to the point that the fingertips touch the palm side of the main knuckle. This is the movement that one should practice, there is no sense in following through into the palm with the MCP, once it touches the string and provides some gripping of the string, its work is done and it's time for it to extend. Also, check out in this video how he holds the a-c fingers into the palm at times when doing i,m alternation. This is common and something I've seen guitarists such as Jason Vieaux and Pepe Romero doing. So, this idea that you always release every finger and let if relax-back the instant you pluck is not always happening in practice. If you observe what great guitarists are actually doing, that opens up more possibilities for what is considered good technique, it expands the concept of good technique, it doesn't narrow it.

Slow mo version

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full speed version

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Larry McDonald
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Larry McDonald » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:21 pm

guit-box wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:40 pm
Other than being reasonably relaxed when you play, very little concern about what your internal muscles are doing is needed.
Unless, of course, technique is progressive. I need to see evidence that there is only one stage of technical acquisition like you are advocating, and not a progression through -or the addition of- various muscles or muscle groups used as one gains technical sensitivity. If there is such a progression, then there will be stages of instruction. I'm quite suspect that we should try to teach micro-sensitivity found in the intrinsic muscles of the hands of highly trained artists to raw beginners. But, I am open to arguments that technique is not physiologically progressive.

Now, for intermediate students, we absolutely need to coach what you show in the slo-mo vids.
Lare
Dr. Lawrence A. McDonald, D.M.A., Art Kaplan Fellow
Author of The Conservatory Tutor for Guitar
2008 Michael Thames Cd/Br
Royal Conservatory Advanced Guitar Instructor
Royal Conservatory Advanced Theory Instructor

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:13 pm

Maestro Segovia's right hand. Notice how he kicks out (forcefully extends) his ring finger middle joint to prepare for the next note and then most of the flexion is being done by the middle joint (PIP) while the MCP extends. Is the MCP just inactively extending or is there muscular activity? I don't know and I don't really care. What matters is that it's happening, so by simple logic we can definitively say the MCP is not pushing through the string and flexing into the palm for this finger, not even a tiny amount. I could agree with the people who argue that over flexion of the MCP into the palm has a usefulness from a teaching standpoint and then later you'll flexion less into the palm after you get the feel of moving primarily from the large knuckle. But it's not a movement you should practice because concert guitarists are not flexing the MCP beyond the initial pressure it applies in front of and on the string. Guitarists should practice exaggerated correct movements, not exaggerated wrong movements.

Also, It's hard to tell in this grainy video, but it looks like he's playing off the right side of his ring finger.


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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:31 pm

I hear this player using a good amount of MCP flexion that contributes to his free and rest strokes, but he's not following through from that joint into the palm. It's so important to use a good amount of initial impulse and momentum from the large knuckle, but it's probably even more important to get the feel for transferring the work to the other joints on impact with the string. That's the skill that needs to be practiced, but sadly that's not being taught in many methods I've seen.

Link removed for copyright reasons
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kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:43 pm

git-box says. "It's so important to use a good amount of initial impulse and momentum from the large knuckle, but it's probably even more important to get the feel for transferring the work to the other joints on impact with the string."

Now this I can agree with.

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