Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:02 am

Here's an even better clip of Segovia's right hand from the same performance. If there's any joint that he's using the most, it's obviously the middle joint. The angle at which his ring finger is striking the string in relation to the plane of the string gives me the impression that he's plucking off the right side of the nail (from right to left) with that finger and perhaps other fingers as well.

Youtube
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:14 am

There's enough closeup video evidence in these clips to prove that Segovia is playing off the right side of the nail. (using a right to left nail ramping movement).

Check out the 2 minute mark when he switches to pizz and there he is clearly playing off the left side of the nail, but 99% of this video shows him playing off the right side of the nail.

Youtube


See 1:40 min

Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:25 pm

Shearer called this a tilt to the left because if you look down at your hand you are rotating it to the left. I taught that the 'a' finger is perpendicular to the string as beginning point. It seems that players have been successful with tilts to the left or right.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:49 pm

About teaching an efficient free stroke, I would say that we are in new territory here. Certainly one doesn't want to teach something that would inhibit the reflexive (?) extension from the knuckle joint while the middle joint completes it's follow through or inhibit the knuckle joint's flexion while the middle joint is extending. What is not known is whether it does any good to attempt to micromanage the stroke before or after the string has been activated. It may be that one must go on feeling alone to get the timing just right, For this I would go back to the idea of whether on can alternate a free stroke continuously without fatigue on the a single string at 140mm (four notes to a click)? If you can do this, the timing probably right; if not, it's probably wrong.

As I've said before, it seems to me that this perfect timing is natural unless you beat it out of the student with bad advice, or if you start using the the left hand too early. It's the early use of the left hand along with concentrating on learning to read music at the same time you are developing the right hand that, IMO, causes sympathetic tension in the right hand that can inhibit the the natural timing. Just a thought.
Last edited by kmurdick on Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ortega
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:40 pm

At 10:33am central time, today, 9-5-17, I discovered:

Bring finger to string from main joint, keeping the other 2 relaxed.

Pluck from the tip joint ONLY, while simultaneously relaxing the two larger joints.

Must simultaneously relax the other two...yes middle joint contracts, but ONLY sympathetically, due to said relaxation.

Zero work is overtly performed at middle joint.

At all times, only one joint is doing work: main joint to prepare, tip joint to pluck.

Special attention required for i, due to its opposition to p and due to its role as the neurological leader of the other two.

Same for rest stroke and free stroke.

I'm quite serious. Special vigilance re: the i finger; apply to/ observe in first measure of Estudio Brilliante, etc and you will be stunned.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:45 pm

This goes against what is seen in the above 100 videos, many of which show a passive tip joint segment. Also, every example show a great deal ov movement from the middle joint.

Ortega
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:09 pm

It's relaxed until the moment of the pluck.

Often this means that the tip joint will activate from a protracted position (some players call this a "relaxed back" tip joint. In fact, the tip segment is relaxed forward in certain circumstances, e.g., Chaconne arpeggio section).

From this sometimes protracted position, the tip joint activates to execute the pluck itself.

Try it with Chaconne arpeggio section, HVL Etude #1, Estudio Brilliante, etc.

This is 100% correct. Try it and you shall see. Special vigilance with each instance of use of i.

Ortega
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:11 pm

And as I said, middle joint movement is a fact. It is, nevertheless, passive and results from relaxation concurrent with the tip joint activation, as I described.

Rasputin
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Rasputin » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:39 am

If you are an ordinary human being with ordinary human hands, you cannot relax the PIP while actively flexing the DIP.

Ortega
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:19 am

Perhaps not, but you can execute work at the tip joint without overtly executing work at the middle joint; its response is to passively contract. This is what I am calling "relaxing" the middle joint; simply refraining from implementing intentional work at thst joint.
Last edited by Ortega on Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

Ortega
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:19 am

Aiming fingertip precisely towards the plucking finger's own main joint, as intended target trajectory, has been and continues to be the key axiom.

If I "explode" the finger's tip towards that finger's own main joint, executing work only at the tip joint, beginning from its fully "relaxed out" position, each and every time, it appears that the middle joint is doing the work.

Not the case. The two larger joints are "relaxing" / responding to the energy expended by the tip joint. The middle joint passively contracts and the main joint passively extends.

I don't have to think about all of this; I simply have to "place from the main joint, then explode towards it from the relaxed out tip joint".

Rasputin
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Rasputin » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:12 pm

Ortega wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:19 am
I don't have to think about all of this; I simply have to "place from the main joint, then explode towards it from the relaxed out tip joint".
I know that my tremolo is better when I pay attention to the sensations in the very tips of my fingers, and maybe that's not a million miles from what you're saying. Still, I think it's important to know what is a helpful mental image and what is a physiologically accurate description of the stroke.

What you are saying in your last two posts doesn't make much sense physiologically. A joint can't really contract or do work, and the muscles on either side of the PIP don't relax in response to the action of the muscle which flexes the DIP. In fact, if the DIP Is flexing but the PIP is not, it means that you are holding the PIP still with the muscle on the other side. In other words the muscles on both sides of the joint are working, which is about as far from relaxation as you can get.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Johnny Geudel » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:53 pm

I was graciously granted permission by virtuoso and educator sans pareil Philip Hii to reproduce here his article 'An efficient free-stroke'. This article and many more can be found on his site.


" September 5th, 2017
An efficient free-stroke must incorporate several essential properties.

First, it must have a built-in rebound mechanism. Meaning that the stroke must not only pluck the string efficiently, but also has a mechanism to return it to plucking position again.

Second, it must occur in a continuous flow of action—the movement of the finger to the string, the plucking action and the rebound should all occur in one motion.

And if you have a series of notes (plucking actions) there should be no stops and starts between the actions. The series of notes should occur in one continuous motion.

Third, it must have a built-in tension-release mechanism.

All actions produce tension. This tension must be released dynamically as you perform the actions (otherwise it will accumulate and you will choke with all that tension).

Fourth, it must not impact the other fingers. In other words, minimal sympathetic motion between fingers.

Fifth, it must move with extreme economy. There must be no wasted motion. The purpose of the stroke is to pluck the string, nothing more. There must be minimal follow-through of the finger after plucking.

So how do you produce a stroke that incorporates these properties?

I’ve found that the key is the vertical stroke.

(Relatively speaking of course—vertical to the soundboard and relatively vertical compared to more traditional plucking methods.)

Most people think of the plucking motion as a horizontal stroke. The finger pushes through the string in a motion that is horizontal to the soundboard.

With the vertical stroke, the finger actually pushes into the string slightly before plucking it.

To achieve this, you’ll have to focus your plucking at your fingertips.

By plucking with your fingertips, you’ll have automatic economy in your movements. The movements will be so small, you’ll feel as if you’re not even moving at all.

The actual sensation of plucking is that of brushing upward across the string as opposed to plucking it directly.

Playing with the fingertips takes care of the fifth property, that of economy.

Next, the actual plucking motion must be the moment of release.

This is important. Think of letting loose an arrow from a bow. That’s the kind of release, a complete letting go of the tension at the fingertip.

This takes care of the third property, the dynamic release of tension.

With this stroke, the instant you pluck is also the beginning of the action to reposition your finger.

Think of the plucking action as a movement to reposition the finger. As soon as you pluck, your finger is already traveling back to playing position.

This takes care of the first property—the built-in rebound mechanism.

When we pluck, we’re essentially moving the fingertip from one point (the beginning point) to another point (the ending point).

How do you move back and forth between two points without stopping and starting every time we change direction?

By moving in circular or oval shaped trajectories.

Circular motion produces the continuous looping actions required in the second property.

When you push into the string, the release is upward rather than inward (into the palm).

This automatically produces the oval trajectory that you see in many good players. With this stroke, you don’t have to worry about trying to produce the oval trajectory. It’s built into the stroke.

Finally, the vertical stroke reduces sympathetic motion in the other fingers.

You can try it. Move one finger inward as if you’re closing a fist. You’ll find that the other fingers will want to move inward too. This is sympathetic motion.

But if you move your finger downward and upward (relatively speaking), you’ll find the sympathetic motion is minimal.

An additional note about these descriptions.

Firstly, the upward motion is not to be confused with the hooking up motion that some beginning players do. Your plucking motion should still be pushing through the string to pluck it, but as soon as the string is plucked, the fingertip relaxes and moves upwards.

Secondly, (and I’m aware I’m repeating myself here) the words vertical and horizontal are meant to be taken relatively. They refer to the plane of the soundboard and are not meant literally.

Vertical is not meant to be straight up and down.

It’s only the feeling of moving the fingers vertically. In actuality, the finger is still moving across the string to pluck it, but the sensation is that of pushing into the string vertically and releasing vertically."

Ortega
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:02 pm

Where did I say that the middle joint doesn't flex?

Quite the opposite.

Hii is describing precisely what results when my discoveries are implemented. This is how I am playing now; it is the way that all virtuosos play free and rest stroke.

I said "the middle joint sympathetically and passively contracts; the main joint passively extends. How this can result in someone thinking that I said that the middle joint doesn't flex is beyond me.

I even underscore this in several other places.

My posts on page 93 of this thread serve to hand all of you the keys to the city. Some of you will pick them up and run with them, others will continue to flounder.

Personally, I have recaptured and far surpassed the better playing of my glory years, when I made my CD. I have attained, or am very close to real virtuosity, for the first time.

I'm placing from the main joint and plucking from the tip joint, aiming fingertip precisely towards the plucking finger's own main joint.

This results in passive middle joint contraction and passive main joint extension. Just as I said. It's not difficult to understand.

It also results in precisely what Hii is describing.

Is this difficult to comprehend? Am I being unclear somehow? People need to brush up on reading comprehension skills. Play the way I have outlined and virtuosity can potentially be yours. Or do not.

Ortega
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:19 pm

I've shared this ultimate right hand truth with you all so thst you might find the freedom thst I now know. I'm not here to debate, my personal results prove me right in a dramatic and indisputable way.

I must say, it's disappointing that no one realizes what a gift they have just received. They post comments on my YouTube description of this ultimate right hand truth; one guy, who posts here, called it "delusional crackpottery".

I suppose that makes Pepe Romero, John Williams, Ana Vidovic, David Russell and Manuel Baruecco delusional crackpots as well? Not to mention Hii, who is clearly playing exactly as I describe in my previous post, on page 93 of this thread.

"I'm placing from the main joint and plucking from the tip joint, aiming fingertip precisely towards the plucking finger's own main joint. 

This results in passive middle joint contraction and passive main joint extension. Just as I said. It's not difficult to understand."

The result is a self relaxing vertical hooking movement as Hii describes, and is precisely what Maestro Celedonio Romero called an "enganchando", as thread starter guit-box has pointed out.

The internet is wonderful, but it can also be mystifying. I've handed all of you the truth. Some cannot comprehend it, others attack it. I'm betting none of those people can actually play, and if they ignore what I've said, they never really will.

I've given all of you a very great gift. My work here is complete. I will not be returning to the forum. Practicing and performing are where I need to spend my time now.

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