Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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Ortega
Posts: 108
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:46 am

Ortega wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:25 pm
Results are amazing with this amendment, which I made very early this morning:

Where I had gone wrong was with respect to the tip joint; I had overlooked its crucial role.

However, I am now *actively using the middle joint, as opposed to passively, along with the tip joint.

The tip joint begins in a protracted, or fully relaxed state; we must ensure this. Then, after main joint brings finger to string, we pluck by:

Simultaneously contracting both middle and tip joints, while relaxing the main joint.

Rest and free stroke the same.

Proper engagement of tip joint in this process is nothing short of transformative
Very important to combine this with my axiom of fingertip aiming towards plucking finger's own main joint as intended trajectory (talking aim, not follow through).

This works like nothing else I've ever tried, or ever been presented with.

*special focus on i finger, the neurological leader of the other two and the common problem finger due to location adjacent to p.

guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:57 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:05 pm
When I first began to study with Aaron Shearer in the late 60s, he mentioned that an important experience for him, both musically and technically, was when he saw/heard a famous harpist play the six Milan Pavans. Just for fun I went to youtube to get a harp lesson and was rather surprised. The technique demonstrated was the exact same technique that Shearer taught in the late 60's ( and is still taught now by a lot high level teachers). The demonstration even includes the use of the P-tip and P follow through to 'i' finger in the P stroke. Of course Shearer modified this approach over the years, but the lesson below was pretty close to what I first learned at Peabody.

It's interesting that harpist mentions two schools of playing, one with firm tips and one with relaxed tips. Of course the demands of the harp are significantly different from the demands of the guitar. Still, this may be an avenue worth exploring. The harp, unlike the guitar, has had a long and continuous development. The guitar's history may be long, but it has been interrupted over the centuries. You might want to start at 3.00 on this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpGNSvTENoI&t=493s
I haven't had a long time to review the harp technique, but I would suspect two things: 1. Harp technique is quite similar to classical guitar technique and 2. They may suffer from the same issues of pedagogy, namely teaching one way and playing another. Demonstrating and performing seem to be two different things and the first performance video I looked at showed the player not following through from the MCP like the demonstration video did.


Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:03 pm

Ortega wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:46 am
Ortega wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:25 pm
Results are amazing with this amendment, which I made very early this morning:

Where I had gone wrong was with respect to the tip joint; I had overlooked its crucial role.

However, I am now *actively using the middle joint, as opposed to passively, along with the tip joint.

The tip joint begins in a protracted, or fully relaxed state; we must ensure this. Then, after main joint brings finger to string, we pluck by:

Simultaneously contracting both middle and tip joints, while relaxing the main joint.

Rest and free stroke the same.

Proper engagement of tip joint in this process is nothing short of transformative
Very important to combine this with my axiom of fingertip aiming towards plucking finger's own main joint as intended trajectory (talking aim, not follow through).

This works like nothing else I've ever tried, or ever been presented with.

*special focus on i finger, the neurological leader of the other two and the common problem finger due to location adjacent to p.
Yes, I have had more success thinking about aiming the tip the finger as it follows through towards the palm side of the MCP joint instead of into the palm (large MCP follow through like the harp lesson teaches). When you do this in an exaggerated way for practice purposes, the DIP/PIP will flexion all the way until they can no longer flexion anymore and the MCP will somewhat automatically extend at the same time. This creates joints moving in opposite directions and it's what allows the finger to reposition for the next stroke at the same instant it is plucking. -- creating an orbital trajectory as the fingertip moves from one pluck to the next.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:35 pm

For one thing, harp technique doesn't use alternation, at least it doesn't look like they do. Everything is a type of planted sequential arpeggio. Without alternation, the amount of time for any given finger recover would be extended quite a bit. This is why it is dangerous to compare techniques between two different instruments. The full follow through (the fist) is actually useful in teaching guitar if a student comes in with an ingrained "claw" right hand, as long as the student understands that this is an extreme exaggeration.

kmurdick
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:37 am

BTW, is it required that all harpists be beautiful young women with flowing hair?

CactusWren
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:50 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by CactusWren » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:03 am

kmurdick wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:37 am
BTW, is it required that all harpists be beautiful young women with flowing hair?
Nope.

https://youtu.be/nPPRvPdNugw?t=2m3s

Briant
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:23 pm
Location: East Sussex Uk

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Briant » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:33 am

Wow Thanks for posting CactusWren. There are significant differences between Harp and guitar technique watching that video.
Very enjoyable playing.

guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:22 pm

guit-box wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:57 pm
kmurdick wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:05 pm
When I first began to study with Aaron Shearer in the late 60s, he mentioned that an important experience for him, both musically and technically, was when he saw/heard a famous harpist play the six Milan Pavans. Just for fun I went to youtube to get a harp lesson and was rather surprised. The technique demonstrated was the exact same technique that Shearer taught in the late 60's ( and is still taught now by a lot high level teachers). The demonstration even includes the use of the P-tip and P follow through to 'i' finger in the P stroke. Of course Shearer modified this approach over the years, but the lesson below was pretty close to what I first learned at Peabody.

It's interesting that harpist mentions two schools of playing, one with firm tips and one with relaxed tips. Of course the demands of the harp are significantly different from the demands of the guitar. Still, this may be an avenue worth exploring. The harp, unlike the guitar, has had a long and continuous development. The guitar's history may be long, but it has been interrupted over the centuries. You might want to start at 3.00 on this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpGNSvTENoI&t=493s
I haven't had a long time to review the harp technique, but I would suspect two things: 1. Harp technique is quite similar to classical guitar technique and 2. They may suffer from the same issues of pedagogy, namely teaching one way and playing another. Demonstrating and performing seem to be two different things and the first performance video I looked at showed the player not following through from the MCP like the demonstration video did.


Youtube

Differences in technique, yes, for sure. Differences in how the joints of an individual fingers move when plucking a string, not really. The harpists do sometimes start the pluck with the finger more extended than guitarists, but some guitarists do that for rest strokes. I haven't seen any rest strokes in the short amount of time I've watched. Watch this video above around 2:30 min and you'll see a very similar finger joint movement in her fingers (index right hand is easiest to see) that we've been observing in the guitarist's free strokes. The fingertip trajectory aims towards the back of the MCP joint, not into the palm. She does do a large follow through of the MCP into the palm at times, but only for slow things. For anything fast such as arpeggios, there's no follow through into the palm from the large knuckle joints. -- same as with concert guitarists.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:27 pm

Btw, contrary to what pedagogy says about thumb technique also only being driven from the base knuckle joint, these harpists and many concert guitarists do use tip joint flexion of the thumb to release the string. It's really the same thing as the fingers, it doesn't mean the base knuckle isn't assisting, it is loading the string with energy for sure, but often times guitarists are using a little tip joint flexion to release the string. Watch David Russell, he plays this way most of the time.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:31 pm

CactusWren wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:03 am
kmurdick wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:37 am
BTW, is it required that all harpists be beautiful young women with flowing hair?
Nope.

https://youtu.be/nPPRvPdNugw?t=2m3s
This harpist does a lot of active extension from the MCP right at the moment the other joints are flexing.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:15 pm

I too noticed some guitar-like movement in the 'i' (2nd) finger of one harpist. There doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency in harp technique, but I would have to look more. One woman mentions that there are three main schools of harp playing.

The use of the P-tip is rare in classical guitar. Many Shearer students use it and also a few others. One thing about using the P-tip is that you get a powerful free stroke sound right away with a short P nail. As David Russell says, there is hardly any reason to use P rest stroke.

kmurdick
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:16 pm

Oh, and don't forget P middle joint; it plays a role.

Ortega
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:35 pm

It turns out that was 100% right about tip joint as sole activator for both free and rest stroke, with respect to i, m and a. Completely corroborated by Maestro Pepe Romero.

What threw me in recent days was my a finger, which is weak but getting stronger. My a finger is the one that I had the 3 surgeries on (4th metacarpal).

If one finger does not perform correctly, the entire hand is thrown off. Now it is clear that I was correct all along, since the date that I originally posted the following, copied here:

Right hand transcendence: 9-9-17, 10:45am central time:

Plucking by *actively* contracting the tip joint only (always beginning from "fully relaxed away from palm" status), while simultaneously relaxing the other two joints, and **aiming the plucking finger's tip towards the plucking finger's own main joint** results in:

1. Simultaneous middle joint passive contraction

2. Simultaneous main joint passive extension

3. Absolute mastery of both the free stroke and the rest stroke.

Apparently most great virtuosos are generally unaware that this is the way they use i, m and a, because I cannot find any reference to it.

I am doing this now, and all of my right hand problems are completely, 100% gone. Tremolo, sextuplets, rest stroke....all are relatively easy now.

It's clear to me as to how the virtuoso who does this naturally might not realize what is actually happening. It looks and feels as if all 3 joints are being activated. All 3 are moving, yes...

It's also clear where "main joint as activator" dogma comes from. The stroke starts there, but only for preparation. If the player does the above naturally, they might easily miss the details of what they're actually doing.

I'm calling this "playing TO the main joint" (as opposed to "from" it).

kmurdick
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:09 pm

Ortega, I can see it that way.

guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:37 pm

Here's Angel Romero talking about how he collapses his tip joints. I don't really see or hear him describing the tip joint flexion being responsible for plucking, it just looks like he let's them "give" a little as he pushes through the strings with the other joints. But maybe I'm missing something, tip joint movement is very subtle for free strokes


Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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