Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
Forum rules
IV Laws governing the quotation/citation of music


For discussion of studies, scales, arpeggios and theory.
guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:52 pm

Here's a video of Pepe allowing his tip joints to passively collapse a little bit. I can see i doing it a little, m doing it a lot, and a I can't really tell.


Youtube


We could also revisit this thread I started in 2013 called: Romeros and Tip Joints. I was mostly looking at rest stroke there but it has some interesting videos. I haven't read it in a long while, I remember people being adversarial about tip joints collapsing, but many people finally saw the evidence was overwhelming. It's been a similar thing on this thread when many of us have challenged that traditional way of teaching the MCP as the main activator.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=80107
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:12 pm

Most definitely aniello desiderio is collapsing his m finger tip joint on free strokes

Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:29 pm

It has occurred to me that relaxing or not relaxing the tips may not be a crucial element in an efficient free stroke. It may be just a way of adjusting the tone.

guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:09 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:29 pm
It has occurred to me that relaxing or not relaxing the tips may not be a crucial element in an efficient free stroke. It may be just a way of adjusting the tone.
It probably depends on the player, for some very good players I know, they insist on the looseness in the tip joints and others say they use it for musical reasons only. But guitarists have trouble accepting that what works for one person one way can also work for another person another way. There are elements to right hand technique that are common among all the great players and there are elements that are variable. Tip joints seem to be one of those things that varies. I've gone back and forth myself about it, I can relax my tips and it feels great and the hand feels more relaxed than ever, but it can also feel like my tool looses some precision. For me, I'm still on the fence about doing it all the time. In order for me to be convinced that I should definitely always allow my tips to collapse, I'd need to see video footage of a lot of great players all doing it. This is one element that's very difficult to see in videos because the camera angles and resolution are not sharp enough many times. That said, there are several examples I posted of great players (such as Barrueco and Romeros) letting their tips bend back under string pressure.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:15 am

It looks to me like a lot of the videos show the middle knuckle joint over the string being played in free stroke. This puts the vertex of the ellipse at the point of the release of the string. Sometimes, the string is slightly in back of the knuckle joint for 'i' in an arpeggio.

guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:52 am

Great players often know very little about what their finger joints are actually doing. The qualities required to be a great artist don't seem to be the same qualities that allows a person to analyze what they're actually doing. For this reason I rank information on technique in this order of importance.

1. What we can hear and see accomplished concert players actually doing.
2. What accomplished concert players say they are doing and teach
3. What a semi-professional player is doing based on what we can see and hear them doing
4. What a semi-professional players says they are doing and teaches
5. What someone on Delcamp says and can demonstrate.
6. What someone on Delcamp says who can't or hasn't demonstrated the technique.

Most of the people on this forum fall into category 6 and that's not what this thread is about. I'm interested in mostly what can be learned by critically looking at 1 and 2. If someone wants to demonstrate in a video where any of my observations of concert players is wrong and can make a convincing logical argument why I'm wrong, bring it on. So far no one has done that. I even posted videos of Denian's own playing (which is quite good) and pointed out how he releases the string with middle joint flexion, but he refuses to make the argument about how what we can see with our own eyes is false. I can only conclude it's because there is no logical argument in favor of the main knuckle centric dogma after seeing all the video proof, so all people like him and guitarista can do is criticize without providing any real video evidence. If you've got some goods, then by all means, make a tutorial video that explains your position on right hand technique and post it.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

User avatar
guitarrista
Posts: 933
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:00 am
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guitarrista » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:55 am

... AAAND, we are back to regularly scheduled programming. Do post some more slowed-down videos!

(Funny that you fall within your category 6: "6.What someone on Delcamp says who can't or hasn't demonstrated the technique." oops! :lol:)

No one wants to argue anymore with you not because there is nothing to say, but because no one cares anymore if you see or understand the deficiencies and limitations of your hypothesis. But just try to submit what your have as an article in a peer-reviewed international journal - I dare you - you will discover you will have to actually deal with the same feedback you already received from several people, and more, and you can't just ignore it or demolish strawmen or keep repeating the same thing over and over or put words in people's mouths. I am done advocating for caution with your analysis. After four years of practicing what you preach, you must be a guitar wizard. Good for you. Carry on.
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Rasputin
Posts: 419
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Rasputin » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:34 am

guit-box wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:52 am
Great players often know very little about what their finger joints are actually doing. The qualities required to be a great artist don't seem to be the same qualities that allows a person to analyze what they're actually doing. For this reason I rank information on technique in this order of importance.

1. What we can hear and see accomplished concert players actually doing.
2. What accomplished concert players say they are doing and teach
3. What a semi-professional player is doing based on what we can see and hear them doing
4. What a semi-professional players says they are doing and teaches
5. What someone on Delcamp says and can demonstrate.
6. What someone on Delcamp says who can't or hasn't demonstrated the technique.

Most of the people on this forum fall into category 6 and that's not what this thread is about. I'm interested in mostly what can be learned by critically looking at 1 and 2. If someone wants to demonstrate in a video where any of my observations of concert players is wrong and can make a convincing logical argument why I'm wrong, bring it on. So far no one has done that. I even posted videos of Denian's own playing (which is quite good) and pointed out how he releases the string with middle joint flexion, but he refuses to make the argument about how what we can see with our own eyes is false. I can only conclude it's because there is no logical argument in favor of the main knuckle centric dogma after seeing all the video proof, so all people like him and guitarista can do is criticize without providing any real video evidence. If you've got some goods, then by all means, make a tutorial video that explains your position on right hand technique and post it.
I think you are giving far too much weight in your list to what accomplished concert players say they are doing and teach, and can't square this with your comment that great players often know very little about what their finger joints are actually doing.

I had gathered that Denian's position is that you don't really need to know what your fingers are doing, which makes him sceptical as to whether anyone can actually benefit from this thread. Did I miss something?

Obviously, the fact that great players often know very little about what their fingers are doing suggests very much that they don't need to know. Learning styles differ though, and I can see that a clear understanding of the mechanics could help learners saddled with a very literal mindset. I doubt those learners are destined for the very top, even with that help - I think a learning style based on listening carefully to both body and instrument (i.e. associating sounds with sensations, and letting the body take care of the mechanics) is likely to be more effective across the board.

At this point the thread is most interesting for the different personality types on display. No doubt Johnny Geudel is aware that a snap election has been called in Japan.

kmurdick
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:50 pm

Rasputin,

I would say that guit-box has completely revolutionized right hand technique with this thread. The reason he was able to do this is because of the youtube revolution. Others may have done this as well, but their books haven't been published yet. Some credit should be given to Delcamp Guitar Site for providing a monitored list. One would have thought that the free for all list, RMCG, would have been the forum to expose these ideas, but as it turns out, this thread has gained no traction over there.

As to how knowing these details would be helpful in teaching, that should be obvious. No more exaggerated follow through from a particular joint for one thing. These ideas will certainly help teachers know if students are on the right track. I would say that any intelligent, open minded teacher who reads thread will likely change their methods to some degree.

SteveL123
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by SteveL123 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:15 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:55 am
... AAAND, we are back to regularly scheduled programming. Do post some more slowed-down videos!

(Funny that you fall within your category 6: "6.What someone on Delcamp says who can't or hasn't demonstrated the technique." oops! :lol:)

No one wants to argue anymore with you not because there is nothing to say, but because no one cares anymore if you see or understand the deficiencies and limitations of your hypothesis. But just try to submit what your have as an article in a peer-reviewed international journal - I dare you - you will discover you will have to actually deal with the same feedback you already received from several people, and more, and you can't just ignore it or demolish strawmen or keep repeating the same thing over and over or put words in people's mouths. I am done advocating for caution with your analysis. After four years of practicing what you preach, you must be a guitar wizard. Good for you. Carry on.
+1
I for one would like to know whether watching, analyzing and discussing endless slo mo videos of concert guitarists actually help in improving one's right hand technique. Please post some videos of yourself showing the improvement.

Rasputin
Posts: 419
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Rasputin » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:42 pm

Don't get me wrong, I am grateful for guit-box's painstaking analysis and have certainly learned something from this thread - as I think have you, Ortega, maybe Robbie Flamerock, Lare McDonald, and possibly one or two others. I'm not sure we can really call that traction though. A lot of the posts have either been angry mudslinging (many of those of course have been removed) and they - as well as more intelligent criticism from the likes of guitarrista - have generally led to a stand off rather than constructive discussion and new insights. The length of the thread is not much of a guide to its impact when so many of the posts repeat what has been said before, and when there are comparatively few posters. In reality you could chop it back to the first few pages without losing much - maybe a discussion of tip joint hyperextension that didn't really go anywhere, and a similarly inconclusive discussion of whether the return is pure elasticity or whether there is muscular effort involved.

The other way to look at the fact that the topic has only survived here is that this forum provides a sheltered environment in which the thread can continue despite being of interest to few and hated by many. In the wild, it seems, it doesn't make it.

I can't comment on what use teachers will make of this information, beyond pointing out that only a small proportion of the teachers on here have got involved. To an extent guit-box's research is a corrective to a principle that never seems to have had much currency outside the US anyway. My own feeling is that it is a bad idea to encourage students to think in detail about the finger movements, and that the fact that Shearer got the movements wrong is not really the point. I suspect "can you make it sound like this" is much more useful approach - but I am definitely not a teacher. I had one comment from my teacher which I ignored because of this thread, although I didn't explain that to her. I think I would have ignored it anyway because of a parallel with keeping the pick close to the strings in electric, and whether this comes from making small and precise movements (my view) or from starting a large and unrefined movement and putting in a stop (the view underlying my teacher's comment).

I am glad to have a better understanding of the finger mechanics that I would never have have but for guit-box's efforts, but I think talk of a revolution is premature.

kmurdick
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:49 pm

Concerning git-box's contribution, I think showing that almost everything that all the experts claim to know about right hand technique is actually wrong, is an important step.

rasputin says, "My own feeling is that it is a bad idea to encourage students to think in detail about the finger movements, and that the fact that Shearer got the movements wrong is not really the point."

No one is suggesting that you encourage students to think in detail about finger movements. It would help if teachers would learn to think this way. Also, because Shearer was wrong about the basic finger movement doesn't imply any sort of complete failure on his part. What he taught actually brought about successful results in most cases. The thing he got right was the concept of maintaining a constant joint angle in free stroke and rest stroke through careful crossing from the elbow. And the fact the joint angles are more extended in rest stroke than free stroke. This alone is close to 95% of the game. Read Tannenbaum's oral history where he talks about Shearer.
https://sfcm.edu/sites/default/files/Li ... enbaum.pdf

kmurdick
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:51 pm

Watch around 3:00. It loosk like when a harpist has to something that is guitaristic, they use thee same free stroke we use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPmKRtWta4E

guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:20 pm

This is an advanced thread and not meant for beginning students, I started it mainly for my own study and if others get something out of it or if teachers change their perspective about how joints work and it helps them become better teachers, that's great. If it only helps me (it has helped me greatly) that's fine too. If you don't like it, then don't contribute to it, it's immature behavior to just make passive aggressive comments because my point of view is different than yours.

I'm sorry if it hurts some members feelings, but this thread has always been about studying 1. how concert guitarists are moving their right hand fingers and 2. comparing that with what they teach about how they move their right hand fingers. So, keeping with the topic, I'm not interested in personal forum members anecdotes about technique unless they can demonstrate it in a video and make a logical case for their beliefs. There are many opinionated Delcampers who claim my observations are wrong and some of them think I'm correct, but neither of those is important to me. I'm interested in data and logical arguments with visual proof. As an example: Sometimes a player who is a flamenco player will insist that you play a heavy-handed rest stroke with lots of MCP flexion and they make a good case for it, but then you hear them demonstrate it and go, oh, well, I don't really like the sound of that. If I can't see you demonstrating it, it's meaningless. I'm glad to be proven wrong about my analysis of right hand technique, but so far I've seen nothing to convince me of that. Again, you all can argue about whatever you want, I have no control over the direction of this thread, but this thread is not about any single camper's opinion, it's about looking at what concert guitarist's are actually doing.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 am

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:29 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:51 pm
Watch around 3:00. It loosk like when a harpist has to something that is guitaristic, they use thee same free stroke we use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPmKRtWta4E
It seems that the harpists use a wrist rotation as an integral part of most every pluck, which is very different from classical guitar technique. Interestingly some people will teach to do that for pull-offs in the left hand, but for guitarists, that movement is limiting for pull-offs. I do think the harpists are generally doing free-strokes like guitarists do and they don't follow through much with the MCP when doing technically demanding things. I do think there is value to compare techniques of similarly plucked instruments like harp, electric and upright bass. I posted some of those previously but the moderators have a policy about no electric guitar posts. Bass players are doing an exchange of first moving to the string with the MCP and then transferring the work to the DIP/PIP flexion and the MCP extends at that point. The joint movements are the same for classical guitarists.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Return to “Classical Guitar technique”