Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

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guitarrista
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guitarrista » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:38 am

guit-box wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:20 pm
it's immature behavior to just make passive aggressive comments because my point of view is different than yours
You might want to print this out in GIANT FONT and nail it on your wall, for quick reference any time you decide to respond to someone here.
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1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:54 pm

Watch it git-box, hostility of any kind never wins minds. You have to remember that the closer you get to the truth, the more hostility you will experience from those who are insecure with their ideas. BTW, I don't think these ideas will improve the technique of anyone who is over 18. For me, it has only shown me what I was already doing. When I had my son video my repeating 'i' finger, it absolutely confirmed everything you and the videos were saying.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:12 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:54 pm
Watch it git-box, hostility of any kind never wins minds. You have to remember that the closer you get to the truth, the more hostility you will experience from those who are insecure with their ideas. BTW, I don't think these ideas will improve the technique of anyone who is over 18. For me, it has only shown me what I was already doing. When I had my son video my repeating 'i' finger, it absolutely confirmed everything you and the videos were saying.
Yes, true (except the over 18 comment). Questioning anyone's long held beliefs is always upsetting to those with closed minds. My most important point is: talk is cheap, make your case with proof and either demonstrate it in a video or (if you can't do that) find a video of a concert musician who is demonstrating it and post that. I have no interest in personal opinions, I want to see and hear it in action.
Last edited by guit-box on Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:21 pm

Since this is an *acoustic* instrument, I assume it doesn't violate the no-electric-guitar rule on this forum. Mechanics between upright bass and classical guitar and harp all have similarities in how the joints move. John P demonstrates his i,m rest stroke alternation when he wants to play fast. Watch how his i and m fingers both release the string by flexion of the middle joint, he doesn't release the string by driving the follow through downward towards the back of the guitar as many classical and flamenco teachers recommend. I've pointed this out many times before, but perhaps an equally important interest is how the fingers reposition for the next pluck. You can see the index and middle finger middle joints actively extending to reposition for plucking the next note. There may be some element that's about relaxing, but really, you can see he is actively extending the PIP to reach out for the next note. I believe it's false to imply anyone can simply relax the fingers or turn off the tension like a light switch and that's what it takes to prepare for the next note. That's clearly not what John P is doing here.


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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:22 pm

deleted duplcate
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kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:57 pm

I studied upright bass for a couple of years, and I believe it is a bit risky to compare this with guitar technique. The distances are different.

I think the idea of using a conscious impulse for the extension of the middle joint comes down to this: if either the middle joint or the knuckle joint is forced to change directions immediately, the fingers will quickly fatigue. I once had an 8 note i and m free stroke burst that went 160mm. I couldn't play 10 notes that fast. There is a timing aspect to this whole thing. One idea might be that the knuckle joint needs no help because it uses both the natural release and some of the potential energy from the depressed string. The middle joint may need a part of its extension to be a natural release and part a conscious impulse (the reaching part). After all, the middle joint gets another relief period in the 2nd half of the knuckle flexion where it appears to be stationary. This is all guess work of course. However it really goes, it may point to the timing of the middle joint as the most complex and important part of the stroke.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by CactusWren » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:52 pm

It's strange that you're criticizing how flamencos play rest strokes and using that as an indictment of the knuckle-joint model, when most CG in America has been taught using the same model for the past 50+ years, and there is no problem with their tone. The same rationale was used to discredit Philip Hii's ideas in order to stay _with_ the knuckle-joint model (by Tom Poore). In both cases, it's weird and seems to suggest that tone is achieved in a mechanical way, not by subtle manipulations, angle of attack, and the fingertips in response to personal taste. These kind of mental dodges are symptoms of cognitive dissonance.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:49 pm

CactusWren wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:52 pm
It's strange that you're criticizing how flamencos play rest strokes and using that as an indictment of the knuckle-joint model, when most CG in America has been taught using the same model for the past 50+ years, and there is no problem with their tone. The same rationale was used to discredit Philip Hii's ideas in order to stay _with_ the knuckle-joint model (by Tom Poore). In both cases, it's weird and seems to suggest that tone is achieved in a mechanical way, not by subtle manipulations, angle of attack, and the fingertips in response to personal taste. These kind of mental dodges are symptoms of cognitive dissonance.
If I can't see and hear a forum member demonstrating their opinions about technique, or post a concert guitarist demonstrating it, I simply cannot trust it, that's all. We all have personal preferences in terms of sound and muscular effort. I prefer a lighter touch to the heavier pre-pluck MCP flexion that I see and hear in many flamenco players. I don't have much use for this way of playing for classical guitar. That said, I still think all players are releasing the string with some amount of PIP/DIP flexion regardless of how much pre-plucking flexion is present or whether or not they know that's what's going on in their own hands.

This player has a nice light touch, similar to Philip Hii. He uses rest strokes occasionally here, but it's always light and relaxed. I am more interested in developing this kind of lightness with minimal movements that seem to be generated primarily from the smaller joints.

Youtube
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:58 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:57 pm
I studied upright bass for a couple of years, and I believe it is a bit risky to compare this with guitar technique. The distances are different.

I think the idea of using a conscious impulse for the extension of the middle joint comes down to this: if either the middle joint or the knuckle joint is forced to change directions immediately, the fingers will quickly fatigue. I once had an 8 note i and m free stroke burst that went 160mm. I couldn't play 10 notes that fast. There is a timing aspect to this whole thing. One idea might be that the knuckle joint needs no help because it uses both the natural release and some of the potential energy from the depressed string. The middle joint may need a part of its extension to be a natural release and part a conscious impulse (the reaching part). After all, the middle joint gets another relief period in the 2nd half of the knuckle flexion where it appears to be stationary. This is all guess work of course. However it really goes, it may point to the timing of the middle joint as the most complex and important part of the stroke.
The upright bass certainly requires more muscular effort to play than a classical guitar, and that's the point. We can see his index finger flexing and extending from the middle joint more than any other joint. Of course he's using the large knuckle joint and the arm (as he says in the video) but we can clearly see him moving the PIP joint the most. And once he speeds up, most of the pluck is being generated by that middle joint movement. A masterful demonstration trumps a hypothesis or opinion every time.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:54 pm

Is his flamenco guitar picado different in technique from classical guitar rest stroke? Maybe it's not, maybe it is. Maybe as CactusWren says, it's also about other things like nails and angles of attack. That sound of slipping off the finger tip and then bumping the nail just before the release seems to be a big part of the sound. It does, though, look like he's using more (of course more is relative) MCP effort than some classical guitarist would use. Although, watch what the movement looks like when he lands on the sixth string (0:55 min) and it's obvious that the middle joint is playing a larger role in picado than many players will admit. It's more that the middle joint movement is hidden when there's a resting string interrupting the follow through


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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:15 pm

Some interesting ideas about the tip joint being the "precision joint". I personally would not want to follow his advice and use this much muscular effort (see around 5:50min). Maybe it works for some, but I'd fear my dystonia symptoms, which are now gone, would return with this much tension. It's personal preference, but I also don't care for the sound at all.


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An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:55 pm

git-box says: "watch what the movement looks like when he lands on the sixth string (0:55 min) and it's obvious that the middle joint is playing a larger role in picado than many players will admit."

That's because he not playing a picado on the 6th string, it's a free stroke. The problem is that he doesn't play any fast scales so you can't see an efficient picado. With the one moderate speed scale, he does use more KJ than MJ movement, but what happens at 160 mm?

CactusWren
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by CactusWren » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:48 pm

guit-box wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:49 pm
CactusWren wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:52 pm
It's strange that you're criticizing how flamencos play rest strokes and using that as an indictment of the knuckle-joint model, when most CG in America has been taught using the same model for the past 50+ years, and there is no problem with their tone. The same rationale was used to discredit Philip Hii's ideas in order to stay _with_ the knuckle-joint model (by Tom Poore). In both cases, it's weird and seems to suggest that tone is achieved in a mechanical way, not by subtle manipulations, angle of attack, and the fingertips in response to personal taste. These kind of mental dodges are symptoms of cognitive dissonance.
If I can't see and hear a forum member demonstrating their opinions about technique, or post a concert guitarist demonstrating it, I simply cannot trust it, that's all. We all have personal preferences in terms of sound and muscular effort. I prefer a lighter touch to the heavier pre-pluck MCP flexion that I see and hear in many flamenco players. I don't have much use for this way of playing for classical guitar. That said, I still think all players are releasing the string with some amount of PIP/DIP flexion regardless of how much pre-plucking flexion is present or whether or not they know that's what's going on in their own hands.

This player has a nice light touch, similar to Philip Hii. He uses rest strokes occasionally here, but it's always light and relaxed. I am more interested in developing this kind of lightness with minimal movements that seem to be generated primarily from the smaller joints.

Youtube
Think about the performance context. Flamenco guys need the loudest and most penetrating sound possible (singing, yelling, clomping feet, no amplification). FFF scales are the norm. The way to get that sound is to push into the soundboard, and you already know how that's done. So given the most force is being exerted at that point, it's natural that R. and others are going to perceive that as the main actor. Also, an extremely bright sound is the norm, so the string is going to be attacked straight on and close to the bridge. (Paco de Lucia apparently advised 1/13th the way down).

Philip Hii had mentioned in a blog post that in a recent concert, he realized that he had to push in way more than he'd previously thought, because of needing to project.

Context is important.

If you don't have to make a loud sound, that will open other possibilities, in the same way that a pop singer can whisper and moan into a mic, but an opera singer must project acoustically in a large space. As you've discovered, in the congenial space of your own home, you can pull _out_ and still get a pleasant sound, no? I believe Carlevaro described this in his book as Touch #1. If you're exerting minimal force with the knuckle joint, the actions of the other joints will be more perceptible, and may dominate.

But what if you have to project? What if you want to increase your dynamic range so it contains more than mp? Play the melody in a group? Be loud for the sake of virtuosity? These are skills that most people want, too. Heck, I am no concert player, but in one venue I play, amplification is not allowed. I have to play Canon in D loud enough for the bride to hear, or else...

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:09 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:55 pm
git-box says: "watch what the movement looks like when he lands on the sixth string (0:55 min) and it's obvious that the middle joint is playing a larger role in picado than many players will admit."

That's because he not playing a picado on the 6th string, it's a free stroke. The problem is that he doesn't play any fast scales so you can't see an efficient picado. With the one moderate speed scale, he does use more KJ than MJ movement, but what happens at 160 mm?
I disagree, he's just continuing the same rest stroke hand position that he had for the other 5 strings. He didn't mid-scale change his technique, he just landed on the sixth string and the middle joint movement was exposed for us to see.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:33 pm

CactusWren wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:48 pm
guit-box wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:49 pm
CactusWren wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:52 pm
It's strange that you're criticizing how flamencos play rest strokes and using that as an indictment of the knuckle-joint model, when most CG in America has been taught using the same model for the past 50+ years, and there is no problem with their tone. The same rationale was used to discredit Philip Hii's ideas in order to stay _with_ the knuckle-joint model (by Tom Poore). In both cases, it's weird and seems to suggest that tone is achieved in a mechanical way, not by subtle manipulations, angle of attack, and the fingertips in response to personal taste. These kind of mental dodges are symptoms of cognitive dissonance.
If I can't see and hear a forum member demonstrating their opinions about technique, or post a concert guitarist demonstrating it, I simply cannot trust it, that's all. We all have personal preferences in terms of sound and muscular effort. I prefer a lighter touch to the heavier pre-pluck MCP flexion that I see and hear in many flamenco players. I don't have much use for this way of playing for classical guitar. That said, I still think all players are releasing the string with some amount of PIP/DIP flexion regardless of how much pre-plucking flexion is present or whether or not they know that's what's going on in their own hands.

This player has a nice light touch, similar to Philip Hii. He uses rest strokes occasionally here, but it's always light and relaxed. I am more interested in developing this kind of lightness with minimal movements that seem to be generated primarily from the smaller joints.

Youtube
Think about the performance context. Flamenco guys need the loudest and most penetrating sound possible (singing, yelling, clomping feet, no amplification). FFF scales are the norm. The way to get that sound is to push into the soundboard, and you already know how that's done. So given the most force is being exerted at that point, it's natural that R. and others are going to perceive that as the main actor. Also, an extremely bright sound is the norm, so the string is going to be attacked straight on and close to the bridge. (Paco de Lucia apparently advised 1/13th the way down).

Philip Hii had mentioned in a blog post that in a recent concert, he realized that he had to push in way more than he'd previously thought, because of needing to project.

Context is important.

If you don't have to make a loud sound, that will open other possibilities, in the same way that a pop singer can whisper and moan into a mic, but an opera singer must project acoustically in a large space. As you've discovered, in the congenial space of your own home, you can pull _out_ and still get a pleasant sound, no? I believe Carlevaro described this in his book as Touch #1. If you're exerting minimal force with the knuckle joint, the actions of the other joints will be more perceptible, and may dominate.

But what if you have to project? What if you want to increase your dynamic range so it contains more than mp? Play the melody in a group? Be loud for the sake of virtuosity? These are skills that most people want, too. Heck, I am no concert player, but in one venue I play, amplification is not allowed. I have to play Canon in D loud enough for the bride to hear, or else...

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this. I think pressing down on the string is one way to achieve more volume, or sometimes just more low and mid frequencies. Other ways that can happen is with a long sloping fingernail ramp that automatically pushes the string down, another way is to simply grip the string with the finger without pushing down more and then using a more powerful pull from the DIP/PIP. Another way is to impact the string strongly with MCP but immediately transfer the effort to the other two joints (what I see happening in most of the great free strokes when there is not time to push down)

All that said, my comment about flamenco was taken a bit out of context. My comment was about my personal preferences and forum members opinions on technique that I cannot listen to or watch. I was merely saying that if I can't see/hear what a forum member is describing I'm not likely to give it much attention. There are so many videos of great concert players online and I've learned the most from watching them demonstrate, listening to the sound they create, and then trying it for myself. If someone wants to disagree with my observations that are based on 100s of concert guitarists and tell me I've got it all wrong, that's fine with me. But if they want to do that and not provide us with some kind of video demonstration of their own ideas, they only want to shoot down my observations, AND then they want me to engage with them (which I've read people complain about), I'm sorry, forget it. It's not worth my time. I've listened to too many people with strong opinions about technique on these forums who cannot provide any video evidence to back up their ideas, and usually when they do, it becomes clear that their "theories" are poorly demonstrated. Check out Ken's lesson on Ballistic Motion or any of Orgega's videos, I can't agree with what I'm seeing and hearing in those videos. Ricardo is a great flamenco player, I admire his technique and wish I had his technique, but I'm not interested in getting that sound since I don't play flamenco, and I disagree with his assertion that his picado is all large knuckle joint pushing through the string. I believe he says just that in his demo video, but we can see it's more complex than he thinks.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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