Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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Blondie
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby Blondie » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:55 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:Do you mean that Parkening developed FD with Ortega's approach?


No. I wouldn't draw such a simplistic conclusion.

It's just a useful observation, when Ortega is saying 'pedagogy A' unequivocally leads to FD and that 'pedagogy B' is the saving grace, to point out that a pedagogue who promotes pedagogy B has got focal dystonia, don't ya think?

As I said, FD is complex.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby Robbie Flamerock » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:58 pm

It may be useful, but far from demonstrating a causal connection. There are too many variables...

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby guit-box » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:02 pm

It was suggested to me that Parkening did have focal dystonia, but it's unconfirmed and I don't believe Parkening himself ever said he had it. I don't want to start rumors but this late in his career it hardly matters. There are many videos of him in later periods (late 1980s-90s) where he seems to be re-fingering things in the right hand and his m-a seem curled into the hand.

When I visited David Leisner for a few lessons in the early 1990s, I was also referred to see a lutenist/guitarist named Patrick O'brien. O'brien was one of the few people at that time who was supposedly an expert on focal dystonia. He whispered to me that Parkening had come to see him about his dystonia. I assume he was being truthful, I don't know why he would make something like that up, but he was acting hush about it. http://www.juilliard.edu/journal/1409/o ... ick-obrien

All gossip aside: Both of these teachers were giving/selling advice that I now believe to be largely nonsense.
Leisner was all about swinging from the elbow and supposedly using the large muscle groups--not necessary a bad idea for some things, but no one can play fast free strokes with his method. It's kind of like saying eating Kale is good for you, sure, you can't deny that, but a person can't just eat kale, it doesn't encompass all of the food groups. O'brien was insistent that the only way to play again was to completely relax the tip joints so they passively bent back -- 100% of the time and for all strokes. He demonstrated it for me, but I was unimpressed with his own implementation of what he was teaching me. (btw, even though the advice of both seemed odd at the time, I independently gave both methods around 3 months of serious practice until abandoning them. It's just another reminder of how much bad information is out there and following the advice of any one teacher religiously and without question is not wise.)

While my playing is not back to where it once was, the things I've learned here from studying videos has helped me get back to playing again. I've also gotten personal emails from other guitarists who have said privately it has also helped them. Nothing I have tried has improved my playing as much as the realization that the MJ (yes PIP) is the main producer of the sound and main KJ (MP joint) is not following through into the palm after the note is sounded. I'm not arrogant enough to say it's some kind of cure for hand injuries, the videos can stand on their own as evidence for what is and isn't the correct way to move the fingers.
Last edited by guit-box on Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby guitarrista » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:10 pm

guit-box wrote:LIke Ortega, I was taught by some teachers to play exclusively from the main KJ.


(bolding and underlining mine) So when your other teachers taught you something different, this would have been a clue not to take things in an absolutist mechanistic sense. And again, you strangely keep bringing back (not quoted) that "follow-through [with the MCP] into the palm" business which is a beginner tip/movement cue and has nothing to do with teaching well-developed technique and virtuoso playing of complex pieces at speed. The scientific method is that you examine all evidence and assumptions and see where it leads rather than decide where you want it to lead and deflect anything which does not agree with that outcome.
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby Blondie » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:14 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:It may be useful, but far from demonstrating a causal connection. There are too many variables...


I agree, I wasn't suggesting one as I already stated. Trying to infer a causal connection would be just like Ortega saying 'pedagogy A causes FD' - too many variables.
Last edited by Blondie on Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby guitarrista » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:15 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:It may be useful, but far from demonstrating a causal connection. There are too many variables...


This statement works both ways. I.e. you can't make a causal claim based on anecdotal correlations that this one method lead to FD and this other (Parkening) method fixed that - then turn around and say however Parkening's FD is irrelevant because there are too many variables to make a causal link.

EDIT: Oops, Blondie beat me by a minute but we are saying essentially the same thing :)
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby Blondie » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:25 pm

guitarrista wrote:EDIT: Oops, Blondie beat me by a minute but we are saying essentially the same thing :)


:)

While we're on it, I have to say I found your earlier post on this subject excellent. It made a whole series of well-argued observations that get to the crux of this. This one:

guitarrista wrote:Yes. In addition, it depends on a player's preferred hand position (say the knuckle) above and in relation to the strings -

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby guitarrista » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:27 pm

Blondie wrote:While we're on it, I have to say I found your earlier post on this subject excellent. It made a whole series of well-argued observations that get to the crux of this. This one:

guitarrista wrote:Yes. In addition, it depends on a player's preferred hand position (say the knuckle) above and in relation to the strings -


Thank you sir! Much appreciate the positive feedback (as well as the negative when it comes) :-)
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby guit-box » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:48 pm

Just as an aside: I started this thread to research right hand technique and see what kinds of commonalities could be extracted about that. It's not my intention to make it about focal dystonia, but if people want to go in that direction that's fine with me, as long as the discussion is about the right hand since the title of this thread is: Right Hand Technique & Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos. Please don't post discussion about the left hand, go make your own topic for that.
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby Robbie Flamerock » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:16 pm

Good example of bouncing and not following through from the knuckle joint: https://youtu.be/okbWHXwx6YA

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby guit-box » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:08 am

New instructional videos by Jorge Caballero on tremolo and arpeggio right hand techniques:


Youtube



Youtube



Youtube
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby guit-box » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:25 pm

Another arpeggio exercise by Jorge Caballero using pimami. I've been noticing a couple things lately. Many great younger players will supinate the forearm (pinky side of hand moves closer to the soundboard) and also when playing fast arpeggios a lot of players will start using more thumb tip joint flexion. Even guitarists who usually do not play with any thumb tip joint flexion will sometimes do it when the arpeggios are fast, and then other players like David Russell and Jorge Caballero seem to have built that into their technique and always do it regardless of speed.


Youtube
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby Robbie Flamerock » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:35 pm

Caballero quite consciously does not supinate with the tremolo, of course.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby guit-box » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:11 pm

It's hard to say from the video. He seems to hold his hand in a more supinated position most of the time than say someone like Barrueco does. He does of course say that he aligns the a-m-i fingers on the first string but that doesn't necessarily mean the rotation of the forearm is not supinated (it could) but it does mean that wrist is angled so the knuckles are more parallel to the strings. I think people often confuse supination/pronation (the rotation of the hand from the forearm) with left/right wrist deviation from a straight wrist.
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Postby Robbie Flamerock » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:14 pm

A certain degree of supination would defeat his alignment purpose, however.


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