[H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

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This is for recordings which have fallen into the public domain, that is to say, which were published more than 50 years ago.

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Juergen Schenk
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[H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Juergen Schenk » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:54 pm

Andres Segovia playing the D-minor Suite from Robert de Visee


Youtube
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Vesuvio
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Re: Segovia- Suite d-minor R. de Visee

Post by Vesuvio » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:51 pm

:merci: Juergen,

I've never seen that video before,

Best wishes, V :)
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Erik Zurcher
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Re: Segovia- Suite d-minor R. de Visee

Post by Erik Zurcher » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:10 pm

Magnificent!I had seen this recording before. Always a pleasure to see the maestro at work. Thank you for posting this, Juergen. :bye:
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Re: Segovia- Suite d-minor R. de Visee

Post by Cary W » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:12 pm

Of course Segovia is using all his Romantic gestures in this music...not politically correct today. The scholarship into period performance simply was not available when he was young, and when he was older he didn't care.
Otherwise he brought the music of De Visee alive at a time when few were interested, and for this we are grateful. See the performances of this music by Rob MacKillop on this forum..they are very fine. :idea:
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Re: Segovia- Suite d-minor R. de Visee

Post by Rob MacKillop » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:14 pm

How bizarre. More Ponce at times than de Visee. It was fun watching it, though.

I'd rather watch Segovia than me any day!

Rob

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Erik Zurcher
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Re: Segovia- Suite d-minor R. de Visee

Post by Erik Zurcher » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:30 pm

Cary W wrote:...not politically correct today.
Sorry, I fail to understand. This has nothing to do politics, has it? I don't mind Visee's music played in a 'romantic' style as long as it is done properly. I think it is a matter of choice or personal taste.
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Re: Segovia- Suite d-minor R. de Visee

Post by flameproof » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:43 pm

e.zurcher wrote: I don't mind Visee's music played in a 'romantic' style as long as it is done properly.
You mean as long as it is done authentically Romantic?

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Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Erik Zurcher » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:12 pm

No, I mean with conviction. If maestro Segovia feels, he has to play it this way, who am I to challenge his musical vision? You and I may have a different musical vision, but his rendition moved me. But I admit, Segovia moves me always.
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Re: Segovia- Suite d-minor R. de Visee

Post by Tarbaby (1953 - 2016) » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:49 pm

e.zurcher wrote:
Cary W wrote:...not politically correct today.
Sorry, I fail to understand. This has nothing to do politics, has it?
Mr. Zurcher (and anyone else not familiar with the expression), although this term was originally derived from the fact that politicians need to watch what they say, it has little to do with politics today. It refers to things that were tolerated earlier, but in more enlightened times are considered dated. Such as racism, sexism, etc.

And, dare I say, rubato and portimento in Baroque music? :desole:

Alan

ps. I love Segovia, too. :wink:

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Re: Segovia- Suite d-minor R. de Visee

Post by David Norton » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:07 am

Rob MacKillop wrote:How bizarre. More Ponce at times than de Visee.
Rob is being coy, there's far more truth to this statement than meets the eye. For those less familiar with this piece, here's what Segovia is playing in this version:

Minuet #1, slowed down considerable and done as a Prelude (as was done by Pujol in his pre-WWII edition);
Bourree;
Sarabande;
Minuet #2, then the Minuet from Visee's Suite #12 in E-minor but here transposed to d-minor, then Minuet #2 again; and finally
Courante from Ponce's "Suite in D" attributed to Alessandro Scarlatti.

So it is really a complete hodge-podge of music he's presenting here, but "that was Segovia", and that was how he did things. Although the sequencing he offers here is a musicologist's nightmare, there's no question of the complete conviction and passion that Segovia is bringing to this performance. Also it's nice to hear a fairly early model of a Ramirez 1a (evidenced by the distinctive rosette). I'd guess this performance dates from 1965 or so.

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Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Rob MacKillop » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:41 am

I see nothing wrong with his approach. A bit of this, a bit of that. Why not? It would be nice if all the composers involved got a mention...but a performance with conviction is what matters at the end of the day. Mind you, imagine doing it with a Bach suite - the Minuets from the '4th Lute Suite' as a Prelude, the courante from the '2nd Cello Suite', a Gigue by Weiss...or is it by Ponce? Etc. Are we a more 'sophistacted' audience by finding such an approach unpalatable? Dangerous ground. File under Period Performance Practice...

I find myself in a post modernist period - it's all good :D

Rob

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Valéry Sauvage
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Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Valéry Sauvage » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:13 am

Yes Segovia is moving, as he is playing like... hum lets say : Segovia, whatever music he is playing... Spanish, Bach, Romantic or post romantic, baroque, it is all the same Segovia style... Nice Ok, we can love his style, but he didn't knew any variation of style according to the music he was playing, and so many people tryed to play the same style. Hopefully he doesn't played a lot of renaissance music with his vibrato and rubato... On Dowland. I'm afraid of the result... Even if I don't agree with some of Julian Bream's choices in early music, he was more curious of the original style than the old master.
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Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Rob MacKillop » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:54 am

It is interesting, this 'ego-centric' approach versus a more 'democratic' approach - I hope it is not a case of Borgias versus cookoo clocks! I've been heavily involved in the Early Music thing for a couple of decades - the right instrument and historically-informed technique for each period - but I feel the Early Music movement has told us more about the decade the CDs were recorded in than the original performance practice. The idea of having a different approach for each period, indeed each decade, is a modern thing. It has been an interesting and informative journey, but the 'Early Musician' never existed before - most performers were like Segovia. Weiss was. Dowland was. Sanz was. They did their own thing. Segovia in this respect is more 'authentic' in his 'interpretation' (read 're-creation') of this Dm suite than I am in my HIP (Historically-Informed Performance) version. We live in strange times.

Rob

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Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Erik Zurcher » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:07 pm

Interesting, Rob! I always enjoy myths being busted.
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Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Valéry Sauvage » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:08 pm

Rob MacKillop wrote:It is interesting, this 'ego-centric' approach versus a more 'democratic' approach - I hope it is not a case of Borgias versus cookoo clocks! I've been heavily involved in the Early Music thing for a couple of decades - the right instrument and historically-informed technique for each period - but I feel the Early Music movement has told us more about the decade the CDs were recorded in than the original performance practice. The idea of having a different approach for each period, indeed each decade, is a modern thing. It has been an interesting and informative journey, but the 'Early Musician' never existed before - most performers were like Segovia. Weiss was. Dowland was. Sanz was. They did their own thing. Segovia in this respect is more 'authentic' in his 'interpretation' (read 're-creation') of this Dm suite than I am in my HIP (Historically-Informed Performance) version. We live in strange times.

Rob
Dowland was playing Dowland's music in Dowland's style, same for Weiss or Sanz, they did not play any earlyer music in their own style. I don't think Weiss played Dowland's music... Now modern players are playing modern music, and also earlyer music, so of course they can all play in the same style and make the same soap, or they can be a little bit curious (as I said about Bream) and try to understand better the music of the past and try (I say TRY...) to play it as it could have been played. If you play the recercar 33 by da milano with thumb under and thumb index alternation, it is not the same than index middle and thumb out. So the result could be interesting (or awfull) 'in both cases... lol) (Rob, aren't you trying to understand the way Sor was playing with no nails and gut strings, on shorter scales guitars ? Or are you going soon to buy a REAL guitar and play with nails and in a modern way ??? lol)
I think, Rob, you are provocative in saying that Segovia is more 'authentic' , he is authentically Segovian, that's all (with all the talent involved, and all the mistakes too...)
Count Basie: I don't worry about virtuosity. I do what I like to do. If I'm a virtuoso, that's great. If not, I'm doing what I like to do.

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