[H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

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This is for recordings which have fallen into the public domain, that is to say, which were published more than 50 years ago.

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[H] Name of performer - Name of composer - Title of work
Rob MacKillop

Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Rob MacKillop » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:44 pm

Yes, I am being deliberately provocative, poking fun at my own seriousness. Just stand back and have a look around - it's all a bit crazy :lol:

Rob

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Valéry Sauvage
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Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Valéry Sauvage » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:00 pm

You know I'm so naïve... ;-)
Count Basie: I don't worry about virtuosity. I do what I like to do. If I'm a virtuoso, that's great. If not, I'm doing what I like to do.

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Cary W
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Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Cary W » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:47 pm

The way he caresses and sustains the notes on 3rd and 4th string reminds me of the way B.B. King would sit on his favourite notes on the same strings. If you are a blues or jazz musician and are bending the music to your will, go for it!
If you are a "classical" musician, that is interpreting that which is classic, recognized as an achievement in music, a little more discipline and obedience to the score are required, allowing some space for interpretation but certainly not that granted a blues or jazz player.
Just a few thoughts. :idea:

Otherwise I have recognized Segovia's contributions in many comments on this forum.
2008 Yamaha GC31C Indian/cedar D'Addario EJ46
1987 Yamaha GC-3 Indian/cedar D'Addario EJ45

Rob MacKillop

Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Rob MacKillop » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:45 pm

Yes, Cary, I agree - to a point. The thing is, all those 'classic' musicians whose music we play didn't give two hoots for authenticity. So if we are to immerse ourselves into the different composers and styles from lots of different periods, we might find ourselves thinking like they did. And what they did was a) write their own music (some of us do that) and b) change the music of other composers to suit their style (we do that less and less - which makes us in one sense inauthentic). Segovia was heir to a tradition which goes back millenia. He also wrote some very nice music...

Many guitarists argue over how to play Bach with some degree of authenticity, yet rarely think of doing so with Tarrega, for instance. Listen to Llobett playing El Testamen...very strange rhythm by today's standards. That's the world Segovia grew up in, and he performed Bach and de Visee within that tradition, which makes his interpretation - in one sense - entirely authentic.
Rob

avoz

Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by avoz » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:44 pm

Rob MacKillop wrote:It is interesting, this 'ego-centric' approach versus a more 'democratic' approach - I hope it is not a case of Borgias versus cookoo clocks! I've been heavily involved in the Early Music thing for a couple of decades - the right instrument and historically-informed technique for each period - but I feel the Early Music movement has told us more about the decade the CDs were recorded in than the original performance practice. The idea of having a different approach for each period, indeed each decade, is a modern thing.
Rob, This is one of a few nails you have hit on the head in this thread - there is a lot of 'being wise after the event' in the debate(s) about 'authentic' performance. Segovia is 'blamed' for the mis-naming of the De Visee pieces, but titling of this video (analogue tape, so some wow/flutter obviating good sound) was probably done by the producers. The video is probably related to the marvellous 'BBC Legends: Segovia' CD (BBCL 4108-2) recording of his 'live' concert at the Edinburgh Festival (28th August, 1955) in which the De Visee pieces performed were programmed by Segovia as "Six pieces from the Suites No. 9n in Dm/No.12 in Em' - the last piece, clearly designed to end the set with a flourish (and clearly not a Minuet) is distinguished by an asterix to signify "arranged by Andres Segovia"; it is, of course, the Courante from Ponce's 'Suite in D'. It is possible Segovia was playing a 'secret Weiss' type joke, as how many spotted it at the time? The BBC CD mentioned is 'the closest approach to the original sound' of Segovia (heard in at least six recitals, possibly eight) I have heard, much superior to the video and proving how few 'flubs' he made in concerts (never heard by most of the You Tube debunkers).

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Valéry Sauvage
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Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Valéry Sauvage » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:59 pm

Rob MacKillop wrote: Many guitarists argue over how to play Bach with some degree of authenticity, yet rarely think of doing so with Tarrega, for instance. Listen to Llobett playing El Testamen...very strange rhythm by today's standards. That's the world Segovia grew up in, and he performed Bach and de Visee within that tradition, which makes his interpretation - in one sense - entirely authentic.
Rob
With this you can advocate any kind of interpretation ! (easy, no ! ;-) too easy...) but why not... the important is music after all... but let me say I don't like his way of playing De Visée (subjective point of view) for the same reason I don't like Karajan's version of Vivaldi's four seasons with the Berlin Philarmonic. (Or any André Rieux....)
Val
Count Basie: I don't worry about virtuosity. I do what I like to do. If I'm a virtuoso, that's great. If not, I'm doing what I like to do.

Rob MacKillop

Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Rob MacKillop » Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:26 pm

Ah, whether we like it or not is another thing. The point I am making is over authenticity. I am saying that although we imagine (we can never be certain) that de Visee played differently (and I'm sure he did), Segovia was acting entirely authentically within the tradition he grew up in. You and I, Valery, are also acting entirely within a tradition, one that has emerged in the last 30 years - the Early Music approach. BUT we are not acting as de Visee would have - and that makes us inauthentic, even though we might sound closer to de Visee than Segovia did. Segovia was acting closer to how de Visee acted. So in one sense (only one) he is more authentic than we are :D

Actually, I think his performance is magnificent!

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Valéry Sauvage
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Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Valéry Sauvage » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:56 pm

Rob MacKillop wrote:even though we might sound closer to de Visee than Segovia did. Segovia was acting closer to how de Visee acted. So in one sense (only one) he is more authentic than we are :D

Actually, I think his performance is magnificent!
As you already know I don't agree with the last sentence, for me it is more a sugar lollypop... but, as said, matter of taste.
About the first part that I quoted of your message, what allows you to say he is more authentic, if he is acting in his own tradition, and we are acting in ours, why his tradition should be "more" authentic ? why early music musicians can't be also "musicians"... (of course he is talented, but aren't Paul O'Dette , Hoppy, Nigel, Bob also very talented ?)
V.
Count Basie: I don't worry about virtuosity. I do what I like to do. If I'm a virtuoso, that's great. If not, I'm doing what I like to do.

Rob MacKillop

Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by Rob MacKillop » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:09 pm

In only one sense is he more authentic - in that he is behaving as de Visee or Weiss or Sor did. We don't. We try to act like they did. But they didn't try to act like anyone else, especially from other time periods.

acfleck

Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by acfleck » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:24 pm

Segovia is not my favorite classical guitar player, but this interpretation is great. I just can't understand his unnecessarily exagerated digitations.

arman guitar

Re: [H] Andres Segovia - R. de Visee - Suite d-minor

Post by arman guitar » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:30 am

I've never seen that video before :D

:merci:

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