Anyone not use nails?

Nail care, nail problems, and the use of nails in playing the classical guitar.
Lawler
Posts: 884
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by Lawler » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:58 pm

Francisco wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:30 pm
...If a [person] could play perfect tremolo with only one finger, or, for example, with the little toe of his right foot, nothing in the score should prevent him from doing it that way if he could manage it.
Well said! Echoes of Praetorius there... thinking of the famous "even with the nose" quote.
fingering indications on a score are always to be taken as kind suggestions, even if written by the composer himself. They are not part of the score proper.
Yes, staff notation represents sound. That's often forgotten by guitarists who are technique-centric or tablature-oriented.

Rasputin
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by Rasputin » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:11 pm

Don't know why this comes to mind

https://youtu.be/dhRUe-gz690?t=141

(from official channel)

davekear
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:12 am
Location: California

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by davekear » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:14 pm

Lawler wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:58 pm
Francisco wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:30 pm
...If a [person] could play perfect tremolo with only one finger, or, for example, with the little toe of his right foot, nothing in the score should prevent him from doing it that way if he could manage it.
Well said! Echoes of Praetorius there... thinking of the famous "even with the nose" quote.
fingering indications on a score are always to be taken as kind suggestions, even if written by the composer himself. They are not part of the score proper.
Yes, staff notation represents sound. That's often forgotten by guitarists who are technique-centric or tablature-oriented.
Absolutely, fingerings are just suggestions. Sometimes really good suggestions. But one should not justify the use of an inferior way of playing something, like playing with your toe, just because they don't have the skill to play it correctly. Really, it's ok to learn a standard tremolo. One should be able to play pami, which is the most natural; and also all the variations. Two finger pmi tremolos are fine too. I personally prefer pami for Recuerdos. But that's my personal taste. Listen to Pepe play recuerdos...beautiful.

ddray
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:10 pm

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by ddray » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:31 pm

davekear wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:14 pm
Absolutely, fingerings are just suggestions. Sometimes really good suggestions. But one should not justify the use of an inferior way of playing something, like playing with your toe, just because they don't have the skill to play it correctly.
Honestly, Dave, you are so wrapped up in rules and technique that you lose sight of being a musician. What matters are the sound waves going through the air and striking the eardrum, not the little fingering numbers on the page. Ana Vidovic plays it correctly using pim. It is NOT an inferior way of playing. All the correct notes are struck at the right time and in the right order. If you can't play it that way, fine. Play it in whatever way it takes for you to strike the right notes at the right time and in the right order.

davekear
Posts: 188
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Location: California

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by davekear » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:00 pm

Again, you haven't been listening to what I've been saying. Go back and read what I wrote. Never mind, this is what I wrote in regards to a tremolo "Now you can play it differently, and some do. But a really good basic tremolo is p.a,m,i p,a,m,i, and that's how Requerdos was written. " That's all. When I said that you can play it differently, and some do, I actually was referring to Anna Vidovic. You can put me down all you want, but I'm just trying to help you man. Take advantage from someone who plays well and has been teaching for many years. My "sight" as a musician is pretty good. It's my life. I've done very well at it. The only thing I'm wrapped up in is helping those students who want to learn to play the guitar well. I'm pretty good at that. But you have to listen to what I'm saying. Or if you just want to find things to argue with, that's fine too, little hard to learn that way though. Ok, now, if you look at the sheet music of Recuerdos, it is a 3 note tremolo. It's in 4, a quadruplet; 1 bass note followed by 3 treble notes. That's how it was written by Tarrega. So a really good way to play that piece as written, if you want to, is to learn a basic tremolo. This is how tremolos are taught to intermediate guitar students by most classical guitar teachers. It's a good thing to learn. A really good foundation. Strengthens your fingers. I teach tremolos to my students this way. I know you don't like to listen to what today's great guitarists recommend, but it's also taught this way by Pepe Romero, Christopher Parkening, Aaron Shearer on and on. So ddray, don't you be so wrapped up in trying to be right all of the time. can't hurt to listen to those who are good at these things. As I mentioned before, which maybe you didn't read, is: It's not a matter of playing to anyone's standards, it's simply a matter of being able to possess enough technique to be able to play all of the challenging and beautiful pieces out there to your own standards. Here's Pepe teaching a tremolo. Watch it, it's actually pretty good info. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anVYoFr5644
Last edited by davekear on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Smudger5150
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:18 pm

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by Smudger5150 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:03 pm

tateharmann wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:29 pm
Smudger5150 wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:50 pm
But I was still amazed at how well (seemingly to me - and I admit I don't listen to CG exclusively so may miss the nuances in the top players) a 'no-nails' player in the TV Guitar Star programme could play Recuerdos.
Are there any clips of that? I'd love to hear it :)
His name is/was Liam Mcmanus but I don't know if there are any clips of him playing recuerdos on the show. There is one of him playing it at home, I think, but the sound isn't great
"Music washes away the dust of every day life." Art Blakey

"If I don’t practice for a day, I know it. If I don’t practice for two days, the critics know it. And if I don’t practice for three days, the public knows it." Louis Armstrong

ddray
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:10 pm

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by ddray » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:07 pm

davekear wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:00 pm
Again, you haven't been listening to what I've been saying. Go back and read what I wrote. Never mind, this is what I wrote in regards to a tremolo "Now you can play it differently, and some do. But a really good basic tremolo is p.a,m,i p,a,m,i, and that's how Requerdos was written. " That's all. When I said that you can play it differently, and some do, I actually was referring to Anna Vidovic. You can put me down all you want, I'm just trying to help you. Take advantage from someone who plays well and has been teaching for many years. My "sight" as a musician is pretty good. It's my life. I've done very well at it.
Ana Vidovic has done better. I'm not arguing, it's pointless. "A really good basic tremolo" is one consisting of a fast reiteration of a note. Period. However it's achieved. Your problem is you define "good" as conforming to whatever rulebook. And then the usual Shearer-Parkening parade. Enough.

davekear
Posts: 188
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Location: California

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by davekear » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:11 pm

ddray wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:07 pm
davekear wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:00 pm
Again, you haven't been listening to what I've been saying. Go back and read what I wrote. Never mind, this is what I wrote in regards to a tremolo "Now you can play it differently, and some do. But a really good basic tremolo is p.a,m,i p,a,m,i, and that's how Requerdos was written. " That's all. When I said that you can play it differently, and some do, I actually was referring to Anna Vidovic. You can put me down all you want, I'm just trying to help you. Take advantage from someone who plays well and has been teaching for many years. My "sight" as a musician is pretty good. It's my life. I've done very well at it.
Ana Vidovic has done better. I'm not arguing, it's pointless. "A really good basic tremolo" is one consisting of a fast reiteration of a note. Period. However it's achieved. Your problem is you define "good" as conforming to whatever rulebook. And then the usual Shearer-Parkening parade. Enough.
You know, I kind of like you ddray, you're an allright guy. I agree with many things you say. But it really wouldn't hurt for you to listen to those great teachers who teach this instrument. Isn't that why you're here? To learn? That really is what some of these modern day great guitarists do really well; Teach others in such a manner that they too can play well. You have to take my word for this, but it's not a conspiracy of authoritative guitar teachers to trick their students. Maybe you didn't read what I wrote. So I'll go over it one more time on this tremolo thing. Please just listen, if you do, you'll probably llearn something here. If it helps, this is not from me, it simply is common knowledge among professional teachers and players. Not from me:
The tremolo of Recuerdos is written in four. It's a quadruplet. So you can choose not to play it that way. That's fine. But if you do decide to play it as written, the basic tremolo, pami, is a really good way to do it. I say that from experience. So does Parkening, Pepe Romero, Segovia, on an on. Why do you think that this is a fundamental way to teach this tremolo? Why would most of the great teachers teach it this way? Did you see the link to Pepe's video? Did you watch it? What did you think of that? It is really a good way to learn a tremolo. Really. It strengthens all of the fingers, and then once you get this basic tremolo down, you can further experiment with different ones. You can do the Anna Vidovic tremolo, 5 finger flamenco tremolo, whatever you wish. I personally do all sorts of tremolos. pami, is a really good one though. And one of the easiest. And it's very worth while to learn. Takes a while. But worth it. My advice to you would be don't listen to me, you feel the need to argue with me too much. But please if you want to improve your playing, take some advice from those who do it well. In most cases they know what they're talking about.
Awaiting your argumentative response.

ddray
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Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by ddray » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:17 pm

I don't mean to be personal. It's really not worth it and I shouldn't have jumped back in. We'll agree to disagree and I honestly wish you the best. Sometimes it's easy to "say" things in a forum like this that you never would say to someone's face, and I'm as guilty of that as anyone.

davekear
Posts: 188
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Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by davekear » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:53 pm

ddray wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:17 pm
I don't mean to be personal. It's really not worth it and I shouldn't have jumped back in. We'll agree to disagree and I honestly wish you the best. Sometimes it's easy to "say" things in a forum like this that you never would say to someone's face, and I'm as guilty of that as anyone.
You're absolutely spot on. Tough over the internet at times. But I am a classical guitar instructor, and have been for over 45 years. And if you ever do need any advice, I'll be more than happy to give it to you.

ddray
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:10 pm

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by ddray » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:42 am

Yes I respect your knowledge and achievements and didn't mean to belittle you. That's just not cool and it bothers me when I type something in the heat of the moment. Take care

Francisco
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:41 pm

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by Francisco » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:59 am

I am getting more and more inclined to believe that Dave is just trolling away, playing the clown or something, amusing himself. I find it hard to believe he could be a guitar instructor and write such nonsense time and time again with zero regard to what is being explained to him.
He writes:
For instance, if you want to play Requerdos de la Alhambra as written, there's no way to play the tremolo without using your "a" finger, as the pattern is p.a,m,i p,a,m,i etc the entire song.
The tremolo of Recuerdos is said to be impossible to perform without the a finger, if it is to be played “as written”. What he means by “as written” is a mystery. It obviously CAN be played “as written” AND without the a finger.
And then:
Now you can play it differently, and some do. But a really good basic tremolo is p.a,m,i p,a,m,i, and that's how Requerdos was written.


So, those who play it “differently” (that is, with a different fingering) apparently don’t play it “as written”. Are we to understand that Ana Vidovic plays a different version of Recuerdos, by simply using a different fingering? Is this what Dave believes?
on a later post, again:
" if you want to play Requerdos de la Alhambra as written, there's no way to play the tremolo without using your "a" finger, as the pattern is p.a,m,i p,a,m,i etc the entire song.
Again, the phrase “as written” makes no sense here. He has been told by more than one person that that p-a-m-i or any other fingering suggestion is NOT part of the musical content of a score. Ana Vidovic plays the exact same piece as those who use p-a-m-i. She does not play a different version of this piece.

When these things are pointed out by me or others, all he does is either repeat what he had already said, or say that your are “missing the point”
Again Francisco, you totally miss the point. I highly recommend for you to get yourself a good private classical guitar instructor. There are some basic concepts that you will need to grasp if you want to be a decent player. Seriously, find yourself a good teacher.
What point am I missing? What concepts am I not grasping? I am graspinng all the necessary concepts to understand that you are writing sheer nonsense over and over again, and most people could grasp this without even playing guitar. The fact that you deliver this nonsense with such cocksure presumptuousness does not make it less nonsensical. Either that or you are pulling everyone’s leg.
In any case, I find it amazing that you are a guitar instructor. If you are, you are doing your students a great disservice by scattering this kind of fertilizer all over their tender young minds, perhaps confusing them for life. Watch out, one day you may run into a pupil who might lack the patience and modesty to hold his tongue and will point these things to you face to face.

I need a teacher, you say? You mean someone like you? If I had a teacher who tried to feed me even a fraction of the drivel you've written here, I would dismiss him on the spot.
Yamaha GC42S

davekear
Posts: 188
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Location: California

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by davekear » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:52 am

Francisco wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:59 am
I
What point am I missing? What concepts am I not grasping? I am graspinng all the necessary concepts to understand that you are writing sheer nonsense over and over again, and most people could grasp this without even playing guitar. The fact that you deliver this nonsense with such cocksure presumptuousness does not make it less nonsensical. Either that or you are pulling everyone’s leg.
In any case, I find it amazing that you are a guitar instructor. If you are, you are doing your students a great disservice by scattering this kind of fertilizer all over their tender young minds, perhaps confusing them for life. Watch out, one day you may run into a pupil who might lack the patience and modesty to hold his tongue and will point these things to you face to face.

I need a teacher, you say? You mean someone like you? If I had a teacher who tried to feed me even a fraction of the drivel you've written here, I would dismiss him on the spot.
[/quote

Still missin it man. First of all I would start with not being so hostile and belligerent. That would be a good start. But even you I would be more than happy to help. But the first step would be to realize that you don't know it all, and that there could be a possibility that you could learn from those who play better than you. That's what it's all about. But you really should stop being so covertly hostile. That ain't gonna help ya. But sometimes it's tough over the internet like this. So I'll give you that. I wish you the best. Anyway, I've covered so many things here, that my only advice to you would be to re-read what I've said. Either that, or you can start in a new unit of time here and ask me any specific question you like. I'll answer it to the best ability I can. But make it a legitimate question oK? Not some covert attack on me. Thanks.

ddray
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:10 pm

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by ddray » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:20 am

Francisco wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:59 am
I am getting more and more inclined to believe that Dave is just trolling away, playing the clown or something, amusing himself. I find it hard to believe he could be a guitar instructor and write such nonsense time and time again with zero regard to what is being explained to him.
Regardless, it isn't worth the rancor. I know a bit about music, and I stand by the basic points I've made (although I could've used a little more tact), but a cold hard fact as far as I'm concerned is that probably 99% of the people on the forum know more about the *guitar* than I do. It would suit me fine if this entire thread were deleted.

davekear
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:12 am
Location: California

Re: Anyone not use nails?

Post by davekear » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:53 am

Francisco wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:59 am
I am getting more and more inclined to believe that Dave is just trolling away, playing the clown or something, amusing himself. I find it hard to believe he could be a guitar instructor and write such nonsense time and time again with zero regard to what is being explained to him.

Yea, I'm a troll :D . That's funny.
Francisco, there's no conspiracy here. I've been posting here for quite a while now. You can listen to some of my videos here and watch how I troll. And I really can't help it if you're having a hard time grasping these simple concepts I've been talking about, referring to basic knowledge of the guitar. Really, that's all I've been talking about. This is basic stuff that every classical guitarist should know. And if you think it's "such nonsense" then you really do have a bit to learn. And I really do understand what you've been "explaining to me". From what you've been saying, it shows me that you're lacking some basic skills and knowledge that really are quite important if you want to be a good guitarist. I can help you with that if you like. And really, you should take advantage of those who want to help you instead of attacking them. If you want to have an intelligent conversation, I'm all for it. But if you think what I've been saying about basic classical guitar technique is nonsense and you'll have none of it, then there really is nothing I can do. However if you want to discuss any of the specifics I've covered, I'm more than happy to do it. We could start from scratch if you wish.

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