equal tempered and tuning

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
amezcua
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by amezcua » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:20 pm

Better in my case means better to me , myself , alone. It`s good for other people to know what I think so they can locate me on their personal insanity scale . That`s all the internet needs . Then league tables can be sorted out with Einstein near the top .Each person can have their own personal scale . How many scales? What`s the world population now? Yesterday it hit 7 .5 Billion. So 7.5 Billion scales . Sorry I thought of it one day late. The clock just struck 12 so I made by seconds . ---That bit is true !
So back to Guitars and Tuning I have just seen the Herve Chouard inspired adjustable fret system that has a French sounding name but it was thought of in Germany . All semitone frets are adjustable and have a curve to make sure the strings don`t get hooked up . Only one drawback is it`s expensive . Called Fret Mobil .Thank heavens for the memory button . It`s on this forum .
I was going to test some brass 2mm thick wire but it was delayed by the lady having an accident. Her brother stepped in to rescue her business and they arrived yesterday . The test was to rely on more Bostik glue beneath the radius of the wire. That is still wet but I tested a piece of 1mm X3mm brass strip stood on edge on some maple. 2nd day for that and surprisingly it is very firm and stable. Only a 1mm thickness contact . So the 2mm round wire will have no problems. After aligning the frets at about fret 6 I can forsee the brass being bent to shape right across the board in most cases . I have a feeling just that will bring up more problems . It has to be tried to see .
If I said I "prefer" something that should keep everybody happy until they asked me why . Then I might walk into another door by answering "because it`s better ".
Last edited by amezcua on Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

amezcua
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by amezcua » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:36 am

I forgot to mention the tool that is best for removing traditional frets . Normal ones. End cutting pliers have jaws with wide sharp edges right where they can grip the fret at the surface . I couldn`t think of the name but I knew just pliers was not good enough . Gently rock the fret to and fro to ease it out .
A little edit here for the pliers . I bought mine in a Pound Shop . On e bay I just saw some going for about £10 . They called them fret removers but they are identical .
Last edited by amezcua on Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

amezcua
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by amezcua » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:19 pm

The harpsichord demo all sounds very heavy and leaden when the chords are stamped out for examination . I started to wonder if Bach was cheating when he wrote the Book of the 48 . If he was playing "strict rules" only the notes in each key should have been used without any accidentals . So added sharp and flat accidentals would get Bach several offside flags during that game .

amezcua
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by amezcua » Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:03 pm

Now that I am going to fit 2mm thick brass wire as frets there is some detailed attention needed to avoid any glue getting on te strings.One string at a time is the method. I wanted the round wire to sit straight on the wood with nothing in between except glue. In the tuning process I want to allow some movement for fine tuning.That would cause the wire to roll and would get messy . So the thin 0.4mm brass strip has to be used again . I won`t put it under the wire this time. I will cut a piece and glue it close up to the wire on a separate surface . I put one on cardboard today . When it sets I can see how manageable that makes it .The flat strip will ,hopefully ,cling on to the wire to give some control with fitting and no rolling over. Then I can remove the flat strip after proper fitting and leave the wire in place . I can glue a slip of paper under the brass strip . When the glue sets the paper will allow easier release .

amezcua
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by amezcua » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:56 pm

I think there is a danger in turning our backs on older ways of tuning and musical forms .We know what is here now but it did not arrive out of a vacuum . If Palmyra was totally destroyed and had never been filmed or photographed would we feel better for that ? Look at the world wildlife scene .My grandson is just 3 years old .What will he think in 40 years when there is almost no wild life left in the world? It will all be the same as drowning refugees at night in the Mediterranean ( spelling attempted 4 times). It`s valuable to look back and also to search for new things.
One small effort is to discover if glue can hold frets in place without cutting slots . Recently I read that the fretboard would bend forwards if the frets were removed. Then I found all the questions about makers wondering how to press /bang or force frets into slots that were too tight. That forces the fretboard backwards quite often .Surely there is room for improvement in that . But glue without slots is changing the rules in a familiar tug of war . A familiar system with frets is relying on a precise division of the fretboard but mostly ignoring string stretch .So you get some precise measurements and uncertain tuning (see the many grumbles) instead of precise tuning with electronics and uncertain or irregular fret positions. ET can benefit from some bendy fret shapes too .
So far I have come to the useful conclusion that using an unequal temperament it`s important to make the octave line as straight as possible, even if a few other frets are uneven . The nut line is pushed into a different shape as each string has a different collection of varied spacings ,apart from the e and E strings . That might seem like a nit picking detail but it is my bit of progress today . How precise should a fingertip placing be to sound the octave harmonic?

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cedartop
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by cedartop » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:01 pm

I use a clip-on strobe tuner which has settings for different instruments, including one that Is optimized for guitar. It takes the adjustments mentioned above into consideration and it works better than my ears do (I have a MFA in guitar and have played one form or another for 50 years now - so perhaps my ears are losing it at this point!). I think the company that makes it is named Peterson, but I'm not sure.
2011 Traphagen Cedar Doubletop
2017 Traphagen Spruce Doubletop

Michael Budinger
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by Michael Budinger » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:48 pm

It has been said that the move away from Just Temperament was the death of consonance. I am in agreement, and don't think it was worth the uniformity of transposition afforded by equal temperament.

But about the intonation of a guitar, I also thought about an adjustable fret system using brass wires. That way the player or listener would get to adjust their instrument however their ear prefers on top of solving the string issues.

amezcua
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by amezcua » Wed May 17, 2017 9:47 am

The forum adjustments have made it easier to access all the strands of an argument (discussion not fight btw ) and I would like to point the finger at some sad developments connected with Musical Temperaments. Up till recently there were just books promoting wrong and misinformed ideas about Equal Temperament and Well Temperamts. Now I realise that Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Brittanica and also the Jiulliard School of Music just don`t get it either. They just don`t see the point or benefit or interest in anything except ET. Check out those sources and see if you agree . It seems they have rehashed and warmed up old ideas without any sense of what it all means .

Alan Carruth
Luthier
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by Alan Carruth » Wed May 17, 2017 5:04 pm

There is an interesting book entitled 'Music and the Making of Modern Science' by Peter Pesic, from the MIT Press, that actually has some interesting discussions of temperaments, especially in the earlier chapters. Seminal figures, such as Boethius and Kepler often relied on musical analogies to understand questions on astronomy and mechanics. Even later some well known scientists, such as Shrodinger and Plank, put a lot of effort into musical questions, including those of temperament. As always, the more you get into it, the more complicated it gets.

StevSmar
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by StevSmar » Sat May 20, 2017 3:22 am

Alan Carruth wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 5:04 pm
There is an interesting book entitled 'Music and the Making of Modern Science' by Peter Pesic, from the MIT Press...As always, the more you get into it, the more complicated it gets.
That looks interesting, thanks for posting.

I definitely agree with you, the more you investigate the more there is to learn. An intriguing journey.
Regards,

Steven from Winnipeg

amezcua
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by amezcua » Sat May 20, 2017 9:55 pm

Today I saw the Howard Goodall video about ET and confidently expected him to give us the truth. Far from it .He pretty much tells us that ET is what Bach invented .The strands of that argument are separated on the video but that`s what he foolishly tells us .When will the nonsense end ? Smug media presentation at it`s worst . But most liked it . Only 8 disliked .
I have a Mexican Requinto where the frets are really not accurately placed and the nut is basically in the wrong place. So it`s not accurately tuned to ET but with a nice tone and whatever random "temperament" it ends up as it still sounds better than proper ET .Maybe more luck than judgement but still interesting and slightly comical . It gets high marks as an instrument though .

StevSmar
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Location: Winnipeg Canada

Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by StevSmar » Sun May 21, 2017 3:47 pm

Hi Amezcua,

It's a fascinating topic which I read widely on until the mathematics became too heavy and unenjoyable. This is currently my full understanding.

Temperaments in general (fretted or fixed intonation instruments):
- You have to decide if you want nice 5th's or nice 3rd's, you can't have both unless you compromise.
- What sounds nice is a combination of physiology and cultural bias.

Equal Temperament:
- A wonderful(?) compromise.
- Allows you to play songs in different keys.
- Annoying beats.

Other Temperaments:
- Sound nicer than equal temperament.
- Non-transposable.
- Frets can't be straight if you really want nice intonation.
- Your guitars intonation (nut & saddle and frets) should really be adjusted for each key.

A fascinating topic.
Regards,

Steven from Winnipeg

StevSmar
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by StevSmar » Sun May 21, 2017 3:54 pm

Alan Carruth wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 5:04 pm
There is an interesting book ....
Hi Alan,
Have you read this book "Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and Viols" by David Dolata? It was on my "think about purchasing" list but got removed when I became frustrated with my progress in understanding how scales are made.

I enjoy you insights.
Regards,

Steven from Winnipeg

amezcua
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by amezcua » Sun May 21, 2017 8:45 pm

Here`s an insight for you . Imagine you are listening to J.S Bach demonstrating his new Temperament Theory .
"Here I have written a fine composition which I will play in every key possible .Only one composition is necessary as the Magical Equal Temperament is being used .I play it note for note in every key and as you can hear they all sound exactly the same apart from being higher or lower . I call this Modulation ." One solitary page of music is handed out and the audience claps politely . End of story .
So if we are to believe that ,we are where we are now .
On the Howard Goodall video I commented "Here is the logic. We cannot know what temperament Bach used so therefore it was ET. " They claim that ET is a mathematically inspired solution. What Mathematician would accept this rubbish logic as a Mathematical Proof ? Should we allow the culture of past generations be dumped down the toilet with these lies? Or should we try to tell the truth ? People can listen to any music they want without making up lies all the time .
Another comment was "Young children may find Mathematics complicated and confusing but we don`t start by telling them 2+2 =3 " . We tell them the truth . Goodall mentions the Dominance of ET as a proof of it`s superiority. Therefore ,using that standard ,Pop Music as the Dominant Music must be the best ever composed .

StevSmar
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Re: equal tempered and tuning

Post by StevSmar » Sun May 21, 2017 11:13 pm

amezcua wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 8:45 pm
....Goodall mentions the Dominance of ET as a proof of it`s superiority. Therefore ,using that standard ,Pop Music as the Dominant Music must be the best ever composed...
There probably is truth to his statement.

But I would have said it like this "The prevalence of ET likely indicates other temperaments are not worth the trouble for fixed intonation instruments"

perhaps playing a piano bias's his opinion too?
Regards,

Steven from Winnipeg

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