Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:40 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:10 pm
Guit-box. I think that at a certain speed you have to do what you are describing. Not necessarily at slower speeds. I'm wondering if the players that describe knuckle joint playing aren't simply showing it at slower speeds?
I've seen some of that, but mostly I see the joints move in opposite directions at all speeds. Many of the videos I've posted contain slow and fast sections. Occasionally I've even seen some MCP follow-through on pima block chords, but it's only for slow things, most guitarists are not following through at all into the palm from MCP. What interests me is what technique is required to play difficult things or to break through speed barriers, not necessarily to play like Paco, but to play the medium and fast passages required in the repertoire. For me, getting good tone and projection at slow tempos is the easy part, and you can get away with things that won't work at medium and fast tempos.

This is an interesting video because it appears like play-relax pendulum movements at slow speeds, but as she speeds up that movement is abandoned. I believe it's because the brain and fingers take over and do the movement that is required to get the job done. This is the crux of the problem, because what guitarists think they are doing is different than what we can see them doing. Her i finger does continue some of the pendulum movement but a and m completely change. Also, the releasing is a coordinated orbit not an instantaneous release as the play-relax technique would imply it is.


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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:53 pm

There's a lot of slow playing in this video and he still plucks from the middle joint and doesn't follow through into the palm at all from MCP

Youtube
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:00 pm

There's no fast playing in this video of Russell and I still see him reaching for the string with PIP extension and then releasing the string with PIP flexion. Of course MCP flexion is playing a part, but it's not following through into the palm at all.

Youtube


Check out :30 min. Nothing fast here either and it's the same joint movement

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Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:51 pm

guit-box wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:53 pm
There's a lot of slow playing in this video and he still plucks from the middle joint and doesn't follow through into the palm at all from MCP

Youtube
If you look at the first 20 seconds or so, there is follow through without the immediate "play-relax", however, even though it is more from the middle joint?

Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:54 pm

I also find playing from the middle joint rather tight. Maybe this is something that varies between players?

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:07 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:51 pm
guit-box wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:53 pm
There's a lot of slow playing in this video and he still plucks from the middle joint and doesn't follow through into the palm at all from MCP

Youtube
If you look at the first 20 seconds or so, there is follow through without the immediate "play-relax", however, even though it is more from the middle joint?

Exactly, the follow through that guitarists should be focusing on is middle joint (PIP) follow through. However, what is taught is to follow through from the large knuckle (MCP) . Tennant, Kanengeiser, Ryan, Azabagic, and many more all teach to treat the MCP as the main thrust and to follow through from that joint into the palm
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:13 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:54 pm
I also find playing from the middle joint rather tight. Maybe this is something that varies between players?
They're not playing from the middle joint, they're releasing from the middle joint. The pluck is a hammer followed by a pull. The hammer is the MCP flexion to the string and it's super important, but its work is done once it reaches and displaces the string, Then it's the middle joint that releases the string to make a sound. All joints are important, it's the pedagogy that's wrong.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:14 pm

Noble is certainly flexing from the middle joint.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:17 pm

This is what it looks like when you follow the knuckle joint (MCP) as the main thrust teaching that is so pervasive. I don't know if his hand is injured, but this is a mild version of how my hand looked after years of playing this way. Not good.


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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:20 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:14 pm
Noble is certainly flexing from the middle joint.
Of course he is. Everyone who plays well is.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:30 pm

You said "they're not playing from the middle joint". ?

Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:38 pm

Could you post a video showing exactly how to work on it?

Lawler
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Lawler » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:49 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:54 pm
I also find playing from the middle joint rather tight. Maybe this is something that varies between players?
IME, knowing many excellent players personally from my studies and concertizing, it varies widely. One sure thing is that you're best avoiding dogma. Another is that classical guitarists are, in general, not very good at describing complex mechanical things - like how the fingers move when performing intricate and variable tasks.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:41 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:30 pm
You said "they're not playing from the middle joint". ?
I should have said, "not playing exclusively from the middle joint". The firing order of the joints for all guitarists is quite consistent. Of course there are variabilities, but everyone who pedals a bicycle uses basically the same pedaling motion. Of course some may stroke harder on the pull than the push, for instance, so there are differences, but the orbital movement is the same. It's the same with guitarists.

It's been described as the following by many:

Tap then scratch
hammer then pull
push then pull

All of these descriptions have an MPC component and a PIP component, but never just one and not the other.

Some will describe the first part as being strong or forceful and some will describe it as a feather touch or a mosquito landing. That's because the amount is variable from player to player and depends on the desired sound and loudness.

In just the same way, for some people the scratch or the pull is very light with hardly any follow through and for some it's a huge follow-through. Concert guitarists seem to have more pull (PIP flexion) than some amateurs in my observation.

About posting videos: Sorry, but I'm not posting videos of myself here, this topic is about analyzing concert guitarists hands. If people don't see what I see in all the videos, that's fine with me, people can believe what they want or disagree with my observations. I'm just putting it out there so others will have more options than I had when I was learning guitar and was lead down the wrong path on right hand technique and ultimately injured my hand because of it.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:48 pm

But how is it an "option" if it can't be explained in the practical sense: how to practice it?

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