Fraud

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
MartenFalk
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Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:04 pm

Fraud

Postby MartenFalk » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:21 pm

This is very sad but I have to warn everyone of the defrauder Alfonso De Vitoria on Facebook (this is not his real name – the name on his bank account is IGNACIO JIMENEZ GABARRI). I bought a guitar from him that he stated to be a "Viuda de Manuel Ramirez" from about 1920. But the guitar I got looked suspiciously new. Today I have showed it to Sweden's leading expert on ancient instruments, Lars Jonsson, and he said that it undoubtedly is 100% certain that it is a forgery. The guitar has fake repairs and old mechanics to make it look older, but everything else show that it is a fake – beyond all doubt. I contacted the seller, and said that if he gives me money back, I'll send back the guitar. But he refuses. I made a police report and I now want to warn everyone gets to do business with this impostor.

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RobMacKillop
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Location: Edinburgh

Re: Fraud

Postby RobMacKillop » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:37 pm

Noted. I feel sorry for you!

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guitarrista
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:00 am
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: Fraud

Postby guitarrista » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:52 pm

It's good that you posted this on facebook in various groups as well. For what it's worth, it looks like that person is not very skilled at fraud at least - he seems to have actual pictures of himself on that FB profile and you can see his FB friends commenting etc.. You should probably save copies of the photos in case he deletes the profile or blocks you. BTW the "De Vitoria" part is clearly because he says he is from Vitoria, Spain (Vitoria-Gasteiz).

Also, the facebook name in the FB link to his profile is Alfonso Jimenez Herrero (https://www.facebook.com/alfonso.jimenezherrero.5). It is possible this is his actual real name, and that the person showing up on the bank account name is a friend or relative. "Alfonso De Vitoria" shows up as Alfonso Jimenez Herrero on this badoo profile: https://badoo.com/es/0387214869/p2430313 - it is clearly the same person based on the photo.
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

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rojarosguitar
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:24 pm
Location: near Freiburg, Germany

Re: Fraud

Postby rojarosguitar » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:07 pm

Sorry for that! Hope you can at least help to stop this criminal activity!
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

MartenFalk
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:04 pm

Re: Fraud

Postby MartenFalk » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:15 pm

Thanks for this guitarista! You are a true detective! I will pass this information to the police.

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Schneider
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:34 am
Location: Paris, France

Re: Fraud

Postby Schneider » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:35 pm

Hi Marten,
I feel sorry for you. What a bad new year surprise.
Anyway, I'll be very curious to see some pictures of this "old" lady.
Cheers,
Pierre
I went up into the attic and found a Stradivarius and a Rembrandt.
Unfortunately Stradivarius was a terrible painter and Rembrandt made lousy violins.

Echi
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm

Re: Fraud

Postby Echi » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:40 pm

Deleted.
Last edited by Echi on Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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petermc61
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Fraud

Postby petermc61 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:48 pm

He doesn't have a reputation as a cheater, but he night have realised he'd bought a fake guitar and thought he might move it on internationally via the internet. :shock:

Sounds like a cheater to me.

Echi
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm

Re: Fraud

Postby Echi » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:56 pm

What I meant is that it's different to make and sell Fake famous guitars on purpose than to sell a guitar you had bought in good faith and you suspect being a fake.
Maybe I'm wrong as in fact it's always cheating.

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Michael.N.
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Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:28 am
Location: UK

Re: Fraud

Postby Michael.N. » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:05 pm

It's difficult. In law it's an offence to sell goods that are a fake, even though that person believed it to be 100% genuine. Then we get into matters of old works of art that have been understood to be genuine for decades, even by experts, yet turn out to be forgeries. Of course it's possible that these forgeries had been sold multiple times. If someone has a track record of selling such forgeries then the law usually comes down on them. Much less so for 'innocent' individuals though.
I'm just pointing out the difficulties. I've no idea about the morals or the law regarding this particular guitar.
Historicalguitars.

Carlos
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:28 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Fraud

Postby Carlos » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:25 pm

What is good is that now you have the identity of the seller, so what you need to do is to take the matter to the next step. Indeed, whether the seller is a cheater or not, as a buyer of second hands product you have some rights and there are ways to get them enforced.

If that would be a buy from a business, then you would have 14 days after delivery to cancel the contract (info in spanish here: http://cecu.es/especiales/14dias.pdf)

As I understand, this is a buy from a private person, so here spanish law says your rights are unfortunately not protected by consumer law (so, no right to cancel within 14 days), but at least your rights are protected by the civil code.

That means that you can still cancel the contract if the good does not correspond to what was announced, or you can get a compensation for hidden defects. In order to get this, you need to go to a tribunal. You have 6 months to proceed, counting as of delivery day (see here, in spanish: http://www.cyzabogados.com/compra-venta ... ticulares/)


I understand that going to a tribunal in particular if you are a foreigner (possibly not speaking spanish) is not the most appealing road to consider. However, there are intermediate actions that you can take before that, which might solve you problem. One easy thing to start with would be to have a lawyer sending an official letter to the seller asking for the devolution of the money (against the devolution of the guitar), and stating that in case of refusal a court proceedings will start.

Knowing that you have good chances to win the court case, which is gonna cost to the seller, the seller might think about it and offer some form of settlement. A possible settlement would be that he sends you another guitar with some real value, that he already has in his possession, which could help you making up your loss.

There are plenty of online lawyers companies in spain, i have used one and this company was working well and cheap. This will however likely cost you some money (say something between 100 and 400 euros, assuming a rate of 50 euro an hour). Another option would be simply to write the letter yourself in spanish and send it to the seller, with a deadline to comply to. In the absence of reaction, then you would need to contact a lawyer firm and they would take care of the procedure (which is likely not gonna cost you as much as you fear, and probably much less than what you paid for the guitar).

That is for the legal road. Then you might also try other non legal options. I understand that the seller seems to be interested in guitars, and is actually quite knowledgable. So, very likely he is connected to many guitar buyers, sellers and players, and you can try to identify members of his network one by one, explain your story and ask if there are ways they could help you. He might get to hear about your attempts, and if you end up contacting someone he cares about (for instance because he has a business relation with the person), he might not like the negative publicity and offer you some settlement. You could of course also target other social networks, like the spanish version of delcamp.

These are just a few hints, just to say that you are not completely powerless. I am happy to help with the spanish if this is one obstacle for you. Hope this is helpful.

Kind regards,

Carlos.

Echi
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm

Re: Fraud

Postby Echi » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:37 pm

The same guy is now selling in the 2nd hand market the very same guitar you mentioned in this post.
The current advertising clearly states that the seller is not sure about the provenance and authenticity of the guitar.
Maybe it's a good idea to update this post when you will have some news.

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Frousse
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Re: Fraud

Postby Frousse » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:58 am

Sorry to hear about this terrible experience. Your post will go a long way in making sure readers are more aware when dealing with individual sellers across the Internet, especially across international borders. I hope your efforts through the police come to fruition.

Keith
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Location: Land of Daniel Boone

Re: Fraud

Postby Keith » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:45 am

Echi, why not post where the alleged fake is being listed so Marten can take action if he so chooses and members can weigh in if they so choose.
be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

Echi
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm

Re: Fraud

Postby Echi » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:09 am

The advertising is put in a website called milanuncios.
Easier to use the search function with the words Vitoria Alava or Alfonso.
Unfortunately for the last 2 years a couple of well known dealers have been constantly monitoring the site to buy (and resell ) whatever interesting but this is a different matter.
Coming back to this 3D, I suppose the buyer gave back the guitar and the seller is selling it again through the same website. if this is the case, it's kind of sad.


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