To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
2handband

Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by 2handband » Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:23 pm

Bill B wrote:
2handband wrote:I'm going to add as an addendum: putting a mic on ANYTHING is going to be a compromise. Even micing my electric guitar cabinet makes me bleed a little; as a soundman I know better then most that my tone isn't going through those miles of cable, a mixing console, auxiliary equipment, high-powered PA amps, etc and getting out through the speakers unscathed (not to mention do I actually trust the damn soundman?). But the real question is do you wanna be heard or not? To realistically resolve this without using PA equipment classical guitarists would have to resign themselves to 500 seats and below.
I'm not certain about the number of seats, but i agree with the concept, that going without amplification will limit the size of the venue. but i would argue that this is better in many ways anyway, so there it is then.
What we're really dealing with is an economic problem... more seats == more dollars. To downsize the venues you'd have to charge more per ticket, and who would pay it?

Bill B
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Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by Bill B » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:12 am

2handband wrote: What we're really dealing with is an economic problem... more seats == more dollars. To downsize the venues you'd have to charge more per ticket, and who would pay it?
Last year one of my students played Koyunbaba unamplified to a full house at the Calvin College music festival in the Covenant Fine Arts Center Auditorium, with seats for 1011 people. I sat in the Balcony. He sounded great. Most of the guitar concerts I go to are not in venues this large. But where I see most classical guitar amplification is either in noisy venues like coffee shops and restaurants, or in ensemble situations where it is not likely to work any other way. Interestingly the only time this semester I played a classical guitar into a mic was a free to the public performance. I was paid, but the audience didn't have to. Most of the classical guitar concerts I see around here are held at the colleges in modest sized recital halls that don't require amplification, and thats the way I prefer to see them.
2013 Angel Benito Aguado
2005 Ramirez R-2

ben etow
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Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by ben etow » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:48 pm

ben etow wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:00 pm
2handband wrote: it was badly EQed as well. There was this dreadful boominess to the sound that any competent engineer could have taken out in 30 seconds flat.
I doubt it is so easy and quick to have a decent sound from a guitar + amp. In 30 sec, you just might try to cut the freqwuencies which cause feedback... And you'd end up with a very poor sound.
Only real expert sound engineers can do the job with really good gear.

Luthier Jean-Luc Joie goes much further as he provides for an all in Wireless solution.
Jean-Luc has posted the following message on FB with two pics. I strongly recommend it as a long time user.

"Omnidirectionnal Wifi ampli , dedicated to our guitars, that we developed with the company " Analog Performance "
José Ferreira , Catherine Struys , Thibault Cauvin , Boris Gaquere ,David Garciarena ,Patrick Lanusse, Patrick Ruby, Pierre Colombo, Christine Lanusse, Jérémy Duran, Jean- Bernard Poublan , Benoit Ducène ......play in concert with it !"
Jean-Luc Joie wi-fi loudspeaker.jpg
Jean-Luc Joie wi-fi loudspeaker 2.jpg
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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:47 pm

It really depends where you're going to perform, if it's a room that is not big, everyone will be able to hear you without a problem. If the place is bigger, you need a mic...
To send light into the darkness of men's heart, such is the duty of the artist. (Robert Schumann)

ben etow
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Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by ben etow » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:18 pm

Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:47 pm
It really depends where you're going to perform, if it's a room that is not big, everyone will be able to hear you without a problem. If the place is bigger, you need a mic...
You're right... If you play alone (and if you choose where you play; I can't, I am glad to play in any hall).
And things change if you play chamber music and obviously a concerto. An unamplified guitar is not an option then IMO. I play with another guitarist and more importantly with a cellist and without JLJ's amp system, we couldn't play with the cellist like equal musicians, we would struggle just to be heard. And that is not music IMO.

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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:45 am

ben etow wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:18 pm
Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:47 pm
It really depends where you're going to perform, if it's a room that is not big, everyone will be able to hear you without a problem. If the place is bigger, you need a mic...
.... more importantly with a cellist and without JLJ's amp system, we couldn't play with the cellist like equal musicians, we would struggle just to be heard. And that is not music IMO.
Unless you play fortissimo and ask the cellist to play pianissimo :wink: :D
To send light into the darkness of men's heart, such is the duty of the artist. (Robert Schumann)

ben etow
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Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by ben etow » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:37 pm

Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:45 am
ben etow wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:18 pm
Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:47 pm
It really depends where you're going to perform, if it's a room that is not big, everyone will be able to hear you without a problem. If the place is bigger, you need a mic...
.... more importantly with a cellist and without JLJ's amp system, we couldn't play with the cellist like equal musicians, we would struggle just to be heard. And that is not music IMO.
Unless you play fortissimo and ask the cellist to play pianissimo :wink: :D
It is very unlikely thecellist would accept or even be able to play pianissimo - which would be like at 65dB, right? And the unamplified guitar player's fortissimo is at 60,5dB instead of 59,5 or 60dB... :D

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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:17 am

ben etow wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:37 pm
Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:45 am
ben etow wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:18 pm

.... more importantly with a cellist and without JLJ's amp system, we couldn't play with the cellist like equal musicians, we would struggle just to be heard. And that is not music IMO.
Unless you play fortissimo and ask the cellist to play pianissimo :wink: :D
It is very unlikely thecellist would accept or even be able to play pianissimo - which would be like at 65dB, right? And the unamplified guitar player's fortissimo is at 60,5dB instead of 59,5 or 60dB... :D
Well, that was a joke but seriously the cello should be able to play pp, maybe not the entire piece, though I've never measured the db... it's quite possible from a composer and guitarist point of view. It also depends on the guitar, modern classical guitar designs can be louder than traditional designs. Hilhorst double top guitars have great projection and volume for one...

Here's an example: I don't know what guitar he's playing and it's not a pro recording. But anyway, neither the guitar is playing ff nor cello is playing pp (never mind the 2 violins and viola) but one can hear the guitar well especially when melodies are played on treble strings, don't you think so?

To send light into the darkness of men's heart, such is the duty of the artist. (Robert Schumann)

ben etow
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Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by ben etow » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:53 pm

I hear about zero dynamics, a huge reverb and I don't trust videos as a rule (I can enloy litening to music on YT but will never make assumptions as to the guitars sounds great ow whatever).
Did you see the "hall" and hear the reverb? Sounds like in a cathedral... Can't trust that one. And again, zero dynamics.

Adam
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Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by Adam » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:30 pm

I've yet to see a professional guitarist that wasn't mic'd. Where I live, there are two main series that each run several shows each year, at the same two venues, and they provide the amplification setup.

Adam
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Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by Adam » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:31 pm

Also, my son plays viola. When we play together I can barely hear myself. Let's face it, we play a very quiet instrument.

ben etow
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Re: To mic or not to mic, that is the question

Post by ben etow » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:09 pm

One prominent Joie user, Thibault Cauvin, rehearsing with Roberto Alagna before the concert (October 29th 2018), recorded and broadcasted by France Musique...
Could you imagine being heard when Alagna is singing next to you? Really? :D
Roberto Alagna and Thibault Cauvin rehearsing for a concert recorded and broadcasted by France Musique.jpg
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