Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:57 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:06 pm
<snip> So there you have, another record, V6, which can be found below. In this V6 I've kept the tempo I used in V5: 1/4 = 77 bpm. <snip>
Hi, Jorge,
  • Solid rhythm, correctly played as written.
  • The thumb is a heavy finger. Use it very lightly when it is playing an accompaniment.
  • In the A section, there are two places where the melody note is not strong enough (an open E and an A on the 3rd string). Probably right-hand fingering problems.
  • In measure 10, you appear to be playing the fingering indicated in the score. This causes gaps in the melody. There are two better approaches. Starting from the E (last beat in measure 9), the following fingerings are possible.
    • 4, 4-3, 2-1, 2-1
    • 0, 1-0, 4-3, 2-1
    Both of those fingerings eliminate the gaps. For simplicity, I left out the open low A in the bass at the first beat of measure 10.
  • I think it needs a little something to bind the melody together better. I think two things would help: 1) playing a little faster; 2) maintaining the volume of the top line consistently and lowering the volume of the bass.
  • Maybe try playing with lighter pressure in the left hand.
Separate topic:
This is a very interesting Idea to post leftovers from opus 60 here. I am still actively working on Opus 60, but I also plan to keep up with this thread. What is your opinion about posting posting leftovers from opus 60 here?
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:00 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:57 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:06 pm
<snip> So there you have, another record, V6, which can be found below. In this V6 I've kept the tempo I used in V5: 1/4 = 77 bpm. <snip>
Hi, Jorge,
  • Solid rhythm, correctly played as written.
  • The thumb is a heavy finger. Use it very lightly when it is playing an accompaniment.
  • In the A section, there are two places where the melody note is not strong enough (an open E and an A on the 3rd string). Probably right-hand fingering problems.
  • In measure 10, you appear to be playing the fingering indicated in the score. This causes gaps in the melody. There are two better approaches. Starting from the E (last beat in measure 9), the following fingerings are possible.
    • 4, 4-3, 2-1, 2-1
    • 0, 1-0, 4-3, 2-1
    Both of those fingerings eliminate the gaps. For simplicity, I left out the open low A in the bass at the first beat of measure 10.
  • I think it needs a little something to bind the melody together better. I think two things would help: 1) playing a little faster; 2) maintaining the volume of the top line consistently and lowering the volume of the bass.
  • Maybe try playing with lighter pressure in the left hand.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Lawler
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Lawler » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:17 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:52 pm
Well done, Christopher, nice tempo, clear notes, good tone. But I agree with Lawler, you end your rendition in a somewhat abrupt way. The final notes might have stayed longer in the air and only then you cut off the recording device.
Personally, I liked the articulation of the last passage - observing the quarter note rest on beat 4 of the final measure. My comment was actually just about having a slight ritardando over the last few notes. :)

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:56 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:57 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:06 pm
<snip> So there you have, another record, V6, which can be found below. In this V6 I've kept the tempo I used in V5: 1/4 = 77 bpm. <snip>
Hi, Jorge,
  • Solid rhythm, correctly played as written.
  • The thumb is a heavy finger. Use it very lightly when it is playing an accompaniment.
  • In the A section, there are two places where the melody note is not strong enough (an open E and an A on the 3rd string). Probably right-hand fingering problems.
  • In measure 10, you appear to be playing the fingering indicated in the score. This causes gaps in the melody. There are two better approaches. Starting from the E (last beat in measure 9), the following fingerings are possible.
    • 4, 4-3, 2-1, 2-1
    • 0, 1-0, 4-3, 2-1
    Both of those fingerings eliminate the gaps. For simplicity, I left out the open low A in the bass at the first beat of measure 10.
  • I think it needs a little something to bind the melody together better. I think two things would help: 1) playing a little faster; 2) maintaining the volume of the top line consistently and lowering the volume of the bass. :D
  • Maybe try playing with lighter pressure in the left hand.
Separate topic:
This is a very interesting Idea to post leftovers from opus 60 here. I am still actively working on Opus 60, but I also plan to keep up with this thread. What is your opinion about posting posting leftovers from opus 60 here?
Hi, Yisrael:

Tanks for listening and commenting my V6 rendition of the #14. It is a beautiful tune indeed that I always have pleasure to play. Concerning your comments:
  • Yes, there is a strong bass, indeed, in this record. I may have overdone it, but how strong they appeared in the record is something that surprised me as well . Not that I deslike it that much, mind you, but, you see, this rendition was done with my Nobe (1972), a spruce top guitar which has a nice sound but does not have at all the projection, or the volume, of my Camps, for example. However, in records it excels and it gives the impression that its basses are stonger than they really are. It's, may be, a question of the iRig microphone, the distance it happens to be from the mouth of the guitar (I try to keep it, during records, some 30 cm appart), or even the sound volume my iPhone at the time of the record (I've come to conclude that 30 cm and six volume notches is OK).
  • In future I'll pay attention to these low volume notes in section A, thank you.
  • The fingering I use is the following, starting with the last open E of m.10 (in my Chanterelle edition):

    Sor's Opus 60, #14, m.10-11.png

    Please notice that in m.11, beat 1, though the 2 is pressing fret 2 of the third string, I do not pluck it, it is just in preparation for the next two following beats, whereby the LH fingers 1 an 2 just slide down the fretboard and up again to occupy the same position as in beat 1. As for the fingers m and , they play strings 1 and 2 in m.11 beat 1 and strings 2 and 3 in beats 2 and 3.
  • Yes, I can increase the speed a little, but not too much for my taste. As for the basses, well, as I said above, I will pay attention not to over do them :D.
I'm not sure what you mean by posting leftovers from the Opus 60 here. Do you mean renditions that were not error free and that you still have in your PC? Or do you mean the pieces that you have studied along the time but were not recorded and posted? Please clarify.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:46 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:56 pm
  • The fingering I use is the following, starting with the last open E of m.10 (in my Chanterelle edition):
    Sor's Opus 60, #14, m.10-11.png
OK, I understand your fingering. The problem is that in beat 2 of measure 10 (your measure 11), you must lift up both the 1 and the 2 finger and move them to different strings AND different frets. This is the cause of gaps. The first secret of legato playing is finger the next notes before you release the previous ones. Where that is not possible, keep as many fingers as possible on the same string they are already on.
Brief explanation of van Handel's ASCII music notatiton:
Format is DNS (duration-note-string).
Duration = 1 (whole note; 2 (1/2 note); 4 (1/4 note) 6 (16th note) 5 (32nd note, 2**-5)
So, if you play the first beat 2A5+4C2+4E1 with the 1 finger, then you can play B3+D2 with the 4-3 finger, with absolutely no gap, because you hold down the 1 finger while you finger 4-3. That also gives you good orientation so that you run no risk of missing string or fret.Once you have the 4-3 fingers down, you finger A3+C2 with the 1-2 (before you lift up 4-3). When you lift up 4-3, the 1-2 is already down, and you have absolutely smooth fingering. This is the principle of legato playing. Lifting a finger off the string and using it again on a different string should be the absolute last resort to be avoided as much as possible.
Try it. I hope it helps.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:52 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:56 pm
Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:57 pm
Separate topic:
This is a very interesting Idea to post leftovers from opus 60 here. I am still actively working on Opus 60, but I also plan to keep up with this thread. What is your opinion about posting posting leftovers from opus 60 here?
Hi, Yisrael:
I'm not sure what you mean by posting leftovers from the Opus 60 here. Do you mean renditions that were not error free and that you still have in your PC? Or do you mean the pieces that you have studied along the time but were not recorded and posted? Please clarify.
My mistake. I thought I was in the Opus 35 thread.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:08 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:46 pm
...
OK, I understand your fingering. The problem is that in beat 2 of measure 10 (your measure 11), you must lift up both the 1 and the 2 finger and move them to different strings AND different frets. This is the cause of gaps. The first secret of legato playing is finger the next notes before you release the previous ones. Where that is not possible, keep as many fingers as possible on the same string they are already on.
Brief explanation of van Handel's ASCII music notation:
Format is DNS (duration-note-string).
Duration = 1 (whole note; 2 (1/2 note); 4 (1/4 note) 6 (16th note) 5 (32nd note, 2**-5)
...
Many thanks, Yisrael, for your comments and advice. However, let me point out that, in going from b.1 to b.3 in m.11, I never lift the fingers from the 2nd and 3rd strings, I merely slide them down to go from b.1 to b.2, and up again to move from b.2 to b.3. Nevertheless, rest assured, I'll try your fingering recommendation.

One note concerning your interesting ASCII music notation :D: as you are defining a particular note, may be you could add the fingering to be used? It would become, then, DNSLR (duration-note-string-LH_finger-RH_finger). But, may be, it becomes too complicated... :?
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Jez
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jez » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:26 am

Happy new year all!

It’s been a few months since I contributed,
please accept my apologies for this, life has been somewhat hectic.

I have managed to record a rendition of no.5 that I wasn’t too displeased with, though it is certainly missing a ‘lightness’ which others seem to capture.

Also, unless I’m making a reading error, my Chanterelle edition has a bass A in measure 19 where as all the free online version I can find have a bass E, as well as every recording I’ve listened to on here. Is this a known discrepancy?I think the bass E sounds better so I imagine it is the correct note. However here I have recorded as written in my Chanterelle edition.

Also I’ve tried to copy the url as a link with a title, for neatness and brevity, but I can’t seem to do it. Would really appreciate some some advice on how to do that.

Many thanks

https://drive.google.com/file/d/183Ioc ... =drivesdk

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:45 am

Jez wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:26 am
Happy new year all!

It’s been a few months since I contributed,
please accept my apologies for this, life has been somewhat hectic.

I have managed to record a rendition of no.5 that I wasn’t too displeased with, though it is certainly missing a ‘lightness’ which others seem to capture.

Also, unless I’m making a reading error, my Chanterelle edition has a bass A in measure 19 where as all the free online version I can find have a bass E, as well as every recording I’ve listened to on here. Is this a known discrepancy?I think the bass E sounds better so I imagine it is the correct note. However here I have recorded as written in my Chanterelle edition.

Also I’ve tried to copy the url as a link with a title, for neatness and brevity, but I can’t seem to do it. Would really appreciate some some advice on how to do that.

Many thanks

https://drive.google.com/file/d/183Ioc ... =drivesdk
Happy New Year also to you, Jez!

I cannot listen and comment your rendition of the #5 as I could not access the audio file, your Google Drive asks me for permission (which I've already asked for). However, it is impractical to keep on granting access to everybody, the best is to make the file accessible for reading by all those who have the link (point to file, click the right button of your mouse, Google Drive -> Sharing -> Set reading rights to all).

Yes, my Chanterelle edition also has an A bass in m.19 and that is how I recorded it and posted in this Forum. But you are right, in the Delacamp's archive on Sor's Opus 60 #5, a quite early French edition, there is an E bass in m.19. I believe nobody in this thread had noticed this discrepancy before you. Possibly, the Editor of the Chanterelle edition made this change to the original, I don't know. Indeed, the A bass also sounds nice to me. But I'm curious to know how is it in the Tecla edition... :)

As using the url as a link with a title, you are almost there, you just have to use the format [url=http://url)]URL text[/url)]. If you do that to your link it becomes, for instance:

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #5.mp3

Very easy!

With this rendition of yours, the Table of Posted Records (TPR) becomes:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 16Jan19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Jez
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Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:49 pm
Location: Midland, UK

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jez » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:26 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:45 am

Happy New Year also to you, Jez!

I cannot listen and comment your rendition of the #5 as I could not access the audio file, your Google Drive asks me for permission (which I've already asked for). However, it is impractical to keep on granting access to everybody, the best is to make the file accessible for reading by all those who have the link (point to file, click the right button of your mouse, Google Drive -> Sharing -> Set reading rights to all).

Yes, my Chanterelle edition also has an A bass in m.19 and that is how I recorded it and posted in this Forum. But you are right, in the Delacamp's archive on Sor's Opus 60 #5, a quite early French edition, there is an E bass in m.19. I believe nobody in this thread had noticed this discrepancy before you. Possibly, the Editor of the Chanterelle edition made this change to the original, I don't know. Indeed, the A bass also sounds nice to me. But I'm curious to know how is it in the Tecla edition... :)

As using the url as a link with a title, you are almost there, you just have to use the format [url=http://url)]URL text[/url)]. If you do that to your link it becomes, for instance:

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #5.mp3

Very easy!

With this rendition of yours, the Table of Posted Records (TPR) becomes:


Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 16Jan19.png


The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
Hi Jorge,

Thanks for the pointer on the link, I’ve no excuses now!

I’ve also shared the file now so that anyone can access. My apologies for not doing that in the first instance.

Thanks

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Christopher Langley
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:51 pm

Jez wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:26 am
Happy new year all!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/183Ioc ... =drivesdk
Absolutely gorgeous Jez!

I think you are absolutely doing the music of Sor full justice.

Nice playing, beautiful sounding guitar and nice sounding recording!

A+

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:18 am

Jez wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:26 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:45 am
...
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #5.mp3
...
Hi Jorge,

Thanks for the pointer on the link, I’ve no excuses now!

I’ve also shared the file now so that anyone can access. My apologies for not doing that in the first instance.

Thanks
I could now listen to your rendition of the # 5, Jez. Simply said, I second the words of Christopher in his post above. It's a beautiful interpretation, a pleasure to listen to - good tempo, crystal clear notes, good dynamics and an appropriate rallenti here and there. The record is also excellent. What gear - microphone, recording device - do you use? I might replicate it. And also, what guitar are you using? It has a nice sound, indeed.

So, the #5 is learned, time now to tackle the #6. It is a nice piece with four beautiful sections. Attention, please to the slur in m.31, the high open E has to be heard, cannot be subdued by the E bass on str.4 :D.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Yisrael van Handel
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Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:51 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:08 pm
Many thanks, Yisrael, for your comments and advice. However, let me point out that, in going from b.1 to b.3 in m.11, I never lift the fingers from the 2nd and 3rd strings, I merely slide them down to go from b.1 to b.2, and up again to move from b.2 to b.3.

One note concerning your interesting ASCII music notation :D: as you are defining a particular note, may be you could add the fingering to be used? It would become, then, DNSLR (duration-note-string-LH_finger-RH_finger). But, may be, it becomes too complicated... :?
Hi, Jorge,
Yes, you are right. I have learned that I am not ready yet to analyze fingering in my head. I must have a guitar in my hands. I simply made a mistake.
As for making van Handel's DNS notation even more complex, I hesitate to do that.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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hgamboa
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by hgamboa » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:28 pm

Hello to all,

I've been absent of producing a recording, but kept following this amazing forum, and continued slowly to practice Opus 60.

The main difficulty is to create a decent recording with minimal mistakes but today I got to a recording that I'm not ashamed!

I've tried to give some different expression on the repeats of this Nr 5...

Here it is:

https://soundcloud.com/hugo-gamboa-8/opus60nr5

My best regards to you all.
Hugo Gamboa
Lisboa, Portugal

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:29 pm

I listened again to my last rendition of Sor's Opus 60, #15 (V4), posted on March 2nd, 2018, and, quite frankly, I didn't like it. Its tempo is, perhaps too slow and there are noticeable changes in rhythm along the way. Moreover, the notes in the fast slurs of m.38 and m.46 are not clear enough. So, I prepared another record, the V5, for you all to listen. The tempo as upped from 1/4 = 80 bpm to 95 bpm which is more adequate to the piece, I think.

The record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects to the iPhone via an Apple Lightning to 3.5 mm Headphone Jack Adapter. The guitar used was my recently refinished Ryoji Matsuoka No.50 - the cedar top had too many dings not of my own, so, Christian Schwengeler, "my" luthier, scraped the old varnish, sanded it a little bit and re-coated it with Shellac - fitted with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #16 (V5).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #16 (V5).mp3

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 20Jan19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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