Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:14 am

hgamboa wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:28 pm
Hello to all,

I've been absent of producing a recording, but kept following this amazing forum, and continued slowly to practice Opus 60.

The main difficulty is to create a decent recording with minimal mistakes but today I got to a recording that I'm not ashamed!

I've tried to give some different expression on the repeats of this Nr 5...

Here it is:

https://soundcloud.com/hugo-gamboa-8/opus60nr5

My best regards to you all.
It's good to hear from you again, Hugo, I must confess I thought you had given up on Sor's Opus 60 Project :D. Welcome back, then.

I listened with attention to your rendition of the #5 and, no doubt, it is learned. The tempo is fantastic, the notes are clear, though I didn't like the record itself, there is a predominance of basses. That may result from your recording apparatus, I don't know. Are you using an external condenser microphone or are you recording using your PC's internal microphone? An external microphone is always better...

Concerning the rendition, I just have the following minor observations:
  1. In m.19 you use a E Bass. In my Chanterelle edition it is an A bass, instead. But the truth is, as our friend Jez has already pointed out that, in older editions (such as the one in Delcamp's archive), the bass note in m.19 is an open E.
  2. I think you are not playing the slurs in m.20 and m.36. Please check.
  3. Finally, in m.39 you are playing both notes, C treble, of the tie.
Time now to proceed to the #6 :D. And in this new piece, please, pay attention to the slur in m.31 - the open E treble must be heard in spite of the presence of an open E bass in the same beat).

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 20Jan19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Yisrael van Handel
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Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:48 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:29 pm
I prepared another record, the V5, for you all to listen.
Jorge,
Very nice. The high D (4D1) in measure 34 is cut off a little too soon. That is perfectly natural, considering the distance the the left hand needs to travel from 9th position back to first position; but I think it is better to have the following note be just a hair late than to cut off the D early.
I think you have reached the stage where you are entitled to shift your focus from perfection of the notes to the overall musical effect. After hearing this recording (I am working on the same piece), I will shift my attention to trying to make the melody line stand out very clearly.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

ChristianSchwengeler
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Location: Lisbon Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by ChristianSchwengeler » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:15 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:29 pm
I listened again to my last rendition of Sor's Opus 60, #15 (V4), posted on March 2nd, 2018, and, quite frankly, I didn't like it. Its tempo is, perhaps too slow and there are noticeable changes in rhythm along the way. Moreover, the notes in the fast slurs of m.38 and m.46 are not clear enough. So, I prepared another record, the V5, for you all to listen. The tempo as upped from 1/4 = 80 bpm to 95 bpm which is more adequate to the piece, I think.

The record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects to the iPhone via an Apple Lightning to 3.5 mm Headphone Jack Adapter. The guitar used was my recently refinished Ryoji Matsuoka No.50 - the cedar top had too many dings not of my own, so, Christian Schwengeler, "my" luthier, scraped the old varnish, sanded it a little bit and re-coated it with Shellac - fitted with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.


Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #16 (V5).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #16 (V5).mp3

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:


Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 20Jan19.png


The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
Very nice recording and rendition, I like it a lot. And it is true the guitar sounds very good. Congratulations for your aditional work with this piece, it was worth it!

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:07 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:48 pm
...
Jorge,
Very nice. The high D (4D1) in measure 34 is cut off a little too soon...
Oh, thank you, Yisrael, yours were nice word, indeed :D. Yes, I could have stayed a bit longer on the 4D1 (the high D in Van Handel's notation :D) as the melody reaches there a sort of climax. Didn't think too much about it, my concern was, mostly, to keep a steady rhythm. Next time, perhaps…
ChristianSchwengeler wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:15 am
...

Very nice recording and rendition, I like it a lot. And it is true the guitar sounds very good. Congratulations for your additional work with this piece, it was worth it!
Thanks for listening, Christian, and for your encouraging comments. The fact is that this was the third record I attempted. The first was with my Matsuoka 40 (1979), the second with the Nobe #8 (1972). None of them came out well enough, so, I decided to try the Matsuoka 50 (1976) whose top you had just refinished. The resulting rendition was not only technically good enough to post, but also, to my surprise, the record sounded absolutely superb. You did a very good job, no doubt, so that I may elect the Matsuoka 50 as my preferred recording guitar from now on :D. I posted about the "new" Matsuoka 50 in another thread. You can see the post here.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Jez
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Location: Midland, UK

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jez » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:11 pm

Christopher Langley wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:51 pm

Absolutely gorgeous Jez!

I think you are absolutely doing the music of Sor full justice.

Nice playing, beautiful sounding guitar and nice sounding recording!

A+
Many thanks for your kind words Christopher!

Jez
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Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:49 pm
Location: Midland, UK

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jez » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:20 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:18 am

I could now listen to your rendition of the # 5, Jez. Simply said, I second the words of Christopher in his post above. It's a beautiful interpretation, a pleasure to listen to - good tempo, crystal clear notes, good dynamics and an appropriate rallenti here and there. The record is also excellent. What gear - microphone, recording device - do you use? I might replicate it. And also, what guitar are you using? It has a nice sound, indeed.

So, the #5 is learned, time now to tackle the #6. It is a nice piece with four beautiful sections. Attention, please to the slur in m.31, the high open E has to be heard, cannot be subdued by the E bass on str.4 :D.
Thank you for your kind words too Jorge!

My recording set-up is very simple, I use an application on my iphone called Voice Recorder and I do all the editing, EQing and file conversion on there. My guitar is a Raimundo 146 Spruce strung with D'addario normal tension trebles and Savarez low tension basses. The mixed strings set up is due to idleness on my part and I keep meaning to complete the restring I start a month ago, fully replacing the trebles. However I've found the mix serendipitous so I may seek a tension combination string set in the future.

I've begun working on #6 now and those rests..........they're pesky :!:

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by RobMacKillop » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:59 pm

My intention was to record the complete Opus 60 today, but events conspired to not allow that. Plus someone is going to loan me a French 19th-C guitar, so I'll save the complete version for that.

Here we have numbers 1, 2, 6, 10, and 20. I've angled the camera to see my right-hand fingers, using a technique as close as I can get to Sor's, as outlined in his Method which was written around the same time as the opus 60 studies. The sun forced me to change position for number 20.

Feel free to give honest opinions...I can take it! :-) Happy also to discuss Sor's technique.

Some technical aspects: middle finger reserved mostly for string 1, even repeating the same finger for a few notes - see first study. Likewise index finger reserved for string two. Both fingers could move to strings two and three. The thumb does everything else. He had a busy thumb!
Also, alternating thumb and index for quicker runs.
I also use some Moretti techniques - Sor studied his tutor - such as raking the index finger over three strings of a C Major arpeggio - see study 10, third full measure.
And some other things.


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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:43 pm

Dear Friends:

January has ended and it is now time to publish the corresponding statistical data concerning our participation in this thread for this past month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Jan_2019.png

The thread is still alive and there is even a newcomer, Christian Schwengeler, an excellent luthier, and, I proudly say it, also "my" luthier , who has his atelier in Lisbon and posted in to praise my latest rendition of the #16 (thank you again, Christian :D) played on my Ryoji Matsuoka No.50 (1976) whose top he had just refinished, replacing the old varnish by a thin coat of Shellac. As usual, those in the graph with zero posts posted sometime in the past but not in this past January. Nevertheless, their names will be kept in the graph so that we all know whom ever participated in this Topic.

The graphic that follows represents the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Jan_2019.png

As for new records posted in January, there were three: Christopher Langley posted his first rendition of the #1 and Hugo Gamboa and Jez presented their first renditions of the #5. Also in January I presented new renditions of the #14, #15 and # 16. I'm now preparing a new rendition of the #17.

Repeated records of the same piece, however, are not accounted for (my own re-records, for instance), only the date of the newest rendition replaces the previous date in the Table of Posted Records (TPR) below.

Monthly Posted Records, Dec17-Jan19.png

The following graph presents the Table of Posted Records (TPR) as of January 31st:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 31Jan19.png

Please notice the grading line showing the Elementary, Novice and Intermediate pieces in the Opus 60. Please notice also that this is just a picture file. However, by pointing at any individual cell in the corresponding TPR Excel file stored in my Google Drive, the reader is directed to the corresponding post in this thread where he will have available not only the audio file but all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.

Finally, the next graphic depicts the total number of monthly posts and views in this Topic since Dec 2018.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts & Views_Dec18-Jan19.png

As the graphic shows, the number of post and views in this Topic was slightly higher in December last year than it was in this January.
I thank you all for your support to this Project

Best regards,

Jorge

Edited to correct references to two months which were wrong.
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:08 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:59 pm
My intention was to record the complete Opus 60 today, but events conspired to not allow that. Plus someone is going to loan me a French 19th-C guitar, so I'll save the complete version for that.

Here we have numbers 1, 2, 6, 10, and 20. I've angled the camera to see my right-hand fingers, using a technique as close as I can get to Sor's, as outlined in his Method which was written around the same time as the opus 60 studies. The sun forced me to change position for number 20.

Feel free to give honest opinions...I can take it! :-) Happy also to discuss Sor's technique.

Some technical aspects: middle finger reserved mostly for string 1, even repeating the same finger for a few notes - see first study. Likewise index finger reserved for string two. Both fingers could move to strings two and three. The thumb does everything else. He had a busy thumb!
Also, alternating thumb and index for quicker runs.
I also use some Moretti techniques - Sor studied his tutor - such as raking the index finger over three strings of a C Major arpeggio - see study 10, third full measure.
And some other things. :D
...
Well done, as usual, Rob, and I look forward to listen to your renditions of the remaining pieces of this Opus 60 :D. As for opinions/observations/questions, I have a few:
  1. First, your right hand fingering technique is, indeed, unique :D. It goes well with the fact that you play without nails, your thumb can pluck any of the thinner strings without producing a tone that much different from the other fingers. You also, occasionally, play a few notes with the same finger in a given string... I like that, I also do it sometimes, without even noticing it, but for not more than two notes. My question to you, just out of curiosity, is the following: is your RH fingering for a given piece studied in advance or is it that your technique is already so entrenched in you that it comes out naturally?
  2. Lots of people in this Forum are of the opinion that repeats should be played a bit different from the first passage (to avoid some monotony, they say :)). In your renditions it seems that you are not much concerned with that. What do you think? Is it just a question of personal taste or is there more to it?
  3. Both the #6 and the #10 are beautiful compositions. Quite honestly, I prefer them played slower. Also, in my Chanterelle edition, as well as in the edition at the Delcamp's archive, there is a slur in m.31 of the #6 which, it looks to me, you are not doing.
  4. Finally, I wish I could play the #20 as fast and as cleanly as you do :D. In parallel with the Opus 35 Project, I'm now reviewing all my previous renditions of the Opus 60 and when I come to the #20 (I'm now in the #17) I'll see if I can speed it up a little... :D
With these renditions of yours, Rob, the Table of posted records is now the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 02Feb19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
[/quote]
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

RobMacKillop
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Location: Edinburgh

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:54 pm

Hi Jorge. Thanks for your considered comments, which I'll address:

1. It might be unique, but it comes from Sor himself. But, HE was certainly unique :-)

Your observation that the thumb tone matches the finger tone, and can therefore play any of the treble strings, is one of the great advantages of no-nails playing, which, of course, Sor advocated and exploited.

As for the playing of a number of notes on the same string with the same right-hand finger, again that comes from Sor. Agreed, it is usually done as a result of sloppy technique, when the player intends to alternate, but Sor is very specific about it. I repeat what I said 90 or so pages ago of this enormous thread (well done, btw!) players studying opus 60 should also study Sor's Method which was written around the same time. The Method doesn't have much music in it, as it's all in opus 60. The two complement and inform each other.

When there are faster passages, he starts to alternate thumb and index, making sure the thumb is on the strong beats (very much a Renaissance-lute technique) and also sometimes alternates m and i on the first string.

To answer your question, sometimes it is worked out, sometimes I just do it, and sometimes I simply forget to do it! I've kind of developed my own technique over the decades, part lute, part Sor, part MacKillop. Sometimes I'm very deliberate in which of the three I'm using, but sometimes they all get mixed up, but as the differences are subtle, it is not so noticeable.

2. Varying repeats. I often vary them, but as these are student pieces, I was at pains to try to play exactly what Sor wrote. I didn't want to confuse any beginner. BTW, I don't always reserve decorations solely for the repeats. One only needs to read through both Sor and Aguado's version of the former's Grand Solo, to see how the latter - a truly great performer - would treat a score.

3. The slur in m.31 of #6: I hate that slur! :-) Even when played slowly, I don't like it. But, as per my point 2 above, I should have included it. Mea culpa.

4. Tempo. As Sor himself states at the start of the original edition, "Where no tempo is indicated, the pieces should be studied slowly and should increase in speed in proportion to the degree of confidence that the student has reached." I guess I was feeling confident that day. Hearing it now, I think I was a little too confident - it's a little too fast.

As a PS, I'd like to add that it is extremely rare to hear Sor's music with the technique outlined by him in his Method. I have no qualms about people using modern techniques with his studies, as long as we admit that we are not saying, "This is how Sor played this" or "This is how this should be played". Anyone who doesn't play with Sor's technique is creating something different than what Sor intended. As for those few who, like me, try to understand his intentions, we soon realise that there is not enough information in his Method, as well as there being contradictions in what he espouses. In other words, I too cannot say "This is how Sor played this" or "This is how this should be played". It's all done in the spirit of enquiry, and I hope my approach is understood in that light.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:12 pm

My only rendition of Sor's Opus 60, #17 was posted on November 12th, 2017. I listened to it recently and, quite frankly, I didn't like it at all. The tone was good but there were hesitations and changes of rhythm galore. Also its tempo was too slow (around 1/4 = 52 bpm) but - what can I say? - that was the best I could do at the time. Moreover, m.25 is a A Minor chord and I played it as an A Major... :oops:. So, I prepared another record, a V2, for you all to listen and comment id you wish so. The tempo was upped to 1/4 = 80 bpm which is more adequate to the piece, I think.

The record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects to the iPhone via an Apple Lightning to 3.5 mm Headphone Jack Adapter. The guitar used was my Hermanos Camps Master No. 3 (2014) fitted with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting the beginning and end of the audio wave file, for the first time no other editing was done to the file :D and no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Fernando Sor - Opus 60 #17 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #17 (V2).mp3

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 06Feb19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:26 am

This is a much clearer and stronger performance, Jorge. Very well done!
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT
First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:25 am

David Norton wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:26 am
This is a much clearer and stronger performance, Jorge. Very well done!
Thank you, David, I'm also quite happy with it. The rendition has a small glitch - the last high F of m.19 is not properly plucked - but apart from that, and as far as I can tell, the rest seems to be OK.

There follows a review of the #18. I listened in the net to Laurence Johnson's rendition of the #18, and he does not seem concerned at all with keeping a steady rhythm. Moreover, he does all sorts of rubatos and changes the value of lots of notes. OK, it's his interpretation and I respect it, but I wonder if this is what Sor himself had in mind when he wrote the piece... :?
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Stephen Kenyon
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Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:54 pm

Just uploaded this :D

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=125634
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
Simon Ambridge 'Hauser' (2018)

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:09 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:54 pm
Just uploaded this :D

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=125634
Wonderful, Stephen, excellent rendition, thans for posting it in this thread as well. When I studied it some months ago, I also noticed how different the three sections are but, somehow, they combine with each other quite well :D.

With this rendition of yours, the table of posted records (TPR) is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 09Feb19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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