Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:09 pm

rpavich wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:28 pm
Well!

I'm in!

Brand new player here. 30 years learning bad rock habits and not sounding like I should...7 year hiatus from playing anything...now back to classical from the ground up and ready to try this.

It will be a few days, I'm at the point where I'm making sure my hands and body and guitar are in the right positions and how to make proper sound. I'm trying not to put the cart before the horse and play pieces before I make sure that I'm developing good habits.

Now...to read through this whole thread...whew!
Hi, rpavich, welcome to this thread. I hope you find it enjoyable and that it helps you to return to music playing. The nice thing about classical guitar, in my view, is that it like a small orchestra, you don't need anything, or any one, else in order to spend some good moments.

In what concerns getting a right posture, a suitable guitar support may help you. There are various, but I'm quite happy with the De Oro Guitar Support. With it you just sit straight in a chair and the guitar will be in the right position versus you. Deciding whether to play with or without nails is also important in terms of producing a tone that pleases you. If you decide to play with nails, a good nail file is essential. Quite recently I experimented with a ladies' file :), the Classy Lady, made of glass, and I'm super happy with it. My daughter tells me that they are somewhat brittle, if they fall to the ground they will simply break apart. Anyway, until that happens it is serving me good (I should get a spare one, though, just in case...).

As for reading the whole thread first, well, this is a very extensive thread indeed, it will take you ages... My advice is that you start by reading only the first few pages, the ones who deal, mostly, with the four or five initial pieces of Opus 60, which, after all, are the ones you you will start playing first, no?

There is also a guide hidden in the thread. At the beginning of every month, I publish some statistics concerning the participation of forum members in the thread, in its various roles, during the previous month(s). In it there is a table of posted records, with the date each one of us posted a record of a particular piece of Sor's Opus 60. By looking at it you can navigate the pages of the thread and listen any particular rendition you might be interested to.

Have fun... :D
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

rpavich
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by rpavich » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:36 pm

Thanks very much, Jorge!
Advice noted :)
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:58 pm

mainterm wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:27 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:46 pm
<snip>... I’ll go, nevertheless, as far as I’ll be able in this “analysis”, as I’ll learn something more in the process and, who knows, may be others in this Project will find it useful ... <snip>
Hi Jorge - you are clearly very dedicated to this effort!

My suggestion is to read about analytical methods - in books, online. Perhaps you have a teacher who can help. Not that anything you've done is misdirected per se. Music Theory and analysis is just a really huge subject. And as these things tend to do, they attract a lot of smart people with different ideas about what is "right" and what is "wrong".

...
Hi mainterm:

Thank you so much for looking into my post a make the suggestions you did, they are quite helpful. Yes, you are right, I really have to delve more into Music Theory and analytical methods and I'll be looking for proper references. Thanks also for your suggestion for simplifying, condensing, the "analysis" I did, I'll look into it in detail and come back to it if I have any doubts. Now, back to my guitar and to the #19... :D

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:00 am

Here's my weekend hat-trick: three videos recorded and uploaded of Sor's Op. 60 #7, #8, and #9.

Op. 60 #7:


[media]https://youtu.be/3F0pWhtlOT4[/media]


-------------------------------------------------
Op. 60, #8:


[media]https://youtu.be/zUlVHACm3kw[/media]


------------------------------------------------
Op. 60, #9:


[media]https://youtu.be/LwZdQcurZHA[/media]


All were recorded on my Kenny Hill "Madrid" guitar. It has the nice rounded tone that I like, and on these Lessons, where crystalline clarity of line isn't so exposed as on the single-note ones, it seems to work just fine.

*********************************************************************************************

Some comments --

Of these first nine Lessons, Number 7 is the first one which I find interesting enough to spend some time memorizing and keeping it in my fingers. Not there yet, of course. Sor finally manages to get some modulation introduced in this Lesson. Camera angle wasn't optimal, you don't see much of my left hand at all, so it's not much fun to watch.

Nos 8 and 9 are obviously a theme-and-variation sort of pairing. I hear Number 8 as a slow chorale, maybe a funeral oration. Number 9 is a broken-chord variant on this, and certainly they are meant to be played as a pair. I thought of doing just a single video encompassing both, but chose to stick with the established one-tune-per-video pattern.

In general, I've found it impossible to get a 100% perfect take on ANY of these lessons. Every one of them has some sort of rattle, buzz, imperfection. Very very annoying to say the least. And it's not a matter of "take more time before recording it" -- there's not a single piece in my entire repertoire which doesn't have the same affliction. The spots where the error is chronic and repetitive, those are easy to track down and address. It's the non-repeating random rattles and buzzes which drive me to distraction.
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soltirefa
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by soltirefa » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:35 am

Good job on these. You seem to learn them quickly. It takes me a long time to get a piece of music well enough to record. Also, for what it's worth, the tone you're getting on these last three is nice. I went back to the previous page to listen to that video you made and these new ones are decidedly better quality tone. Not sure how much has to do with the camera placement and how much the different guitar, but I think it might be a worthwhile sacrifice to omit some view of your playing hands in order to get that better tone. Kudos on your work in this thread.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:54 am

David Norton wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:00 am
Here's my weekend hat-trick: three videos recorded and uploaded of Sor's Op. 60 #7, #8, and #9.

...

Some comments --

Of these first nine Lessons, Number 7 is the first one which I find interesting enough to spend some time memorizing and keeping it in my fingers. Not there yet, of course. Sor finally manages to get some modulation introduced in this Lesson. Camera angle wasn't optimal, you don't see much of my left hand at all, so it's not much fun to watch.

Nos 8 and 9 are obviously a theme-and-variation sort of pairing. I hear Number 8 as a slow chorale, maybe a funeral oration. Number 9 is a broken-chord variant on this, and certainly they are meant to be played as a pair. I thought of doing just a single video encompassing both, but chose to stick with the established one-tune-per-video pattern.

In general, I've found it impossible to get a 100% perfect take on ANY of these lessons. Every one of them has some sort of rattle, buzz, imperfection. Very very annoying to say the least. And it's not a matter of "take more time before recording it" -- there's not a single piece in my entire repertoire which doesn't have the same affliction. The spots where the error is chronic and repetitive, those are easy to track down and address. It's the non-repeating random rattles and buzzes which drive me to distraction.
Gosh, David, you never cease to surprise me on how fast you are able to learn a piece and record it, never mind the small imperfections hardly noticed by anyone except you... :). It's the advantage of having a good sight reading ability. I don't, I have to memorize everything, and that takes time, naturally.

The #7 - one of the most difficult for me at the time - is nicely played, congratulations. As for the #8 I was a bit surprised with your assumption that it is a sad tune a funeral oration (here, in the Iberian Peninsula, there is an ancient word with that meaning, endecha, and Francisco Tárrega has an excellent composition with that name which you have heard already, I'm sure). I tend to play it a bit more lively. Finally, concerning the the #9, with the same chords as the #8, Sor is quoted in the Chanterelle edition as saying, in the original edition, "This lesson is nothing more than the development of the preceding one". So your statement is correct, they are a pair and you played it also quite well.

There follows now the #10, a simple but extremely beautiful composition, one that deserves to be memorized as well. My advice: don't overdo on the stops, let the notes ring...

With these three renditions of yours, the table of posted records becomes:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 15Jan18.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:10 pm

soltirefa wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:35 am
Good job on these. You seem to learn them quickly. It takes me a long time to get a piece of music well enough to record. Also, for what it's worth, the tone you're getting on these last three is nice. Kudos on your work in this thread.
Thank you, Glenn!!
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Chariot0
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Chariot0 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:52 pm

rpavich wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:28 pm
Well!

I'm in!

Brand new player here. 30 years learning bad rock habits and not sounding like I should...7 year hiatus from playing anything...now back to classical from the ground up and ready to try this.

It will be a few days, I'm at the point where I'm making sure my hands and body and guitar are in the right positions and how to make proper sound. I'm trying not to put the cart before the horse and play pieces before I make sure that I'm developing good habits.

Now...to read through this whole thread...whew!
Welcome rpavich. The whole thread... lol. I did read the whole thread... there is some good information in there, but there is a lot of stuff. Do it if you are committed but don't let it put you off. I would suggest reading the first few pages where there is some good feedback about the first few pieces and then start working on them. Then just get back to the thread when you have a moment.

Cheers,
Roger

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Chariot0 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:59 pm

David Norton wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:44 am
First video of 2018. Here's my submission for #5:


[media]https://youtu.be/m_48FQFAevo[/media]


Recorded again on my 2002 Hill Madrid, but using a different camera angle which I think allows for a more balanced recorded sound.

Number 6 is next. I've figured out how to follow many of the indicated rests, however it will take a bit of time to get this one to the point I am willing to record/publish it.
I know this is a late response but I've been working on this piece on and off for the last couple of weeks and I really like it. You flew through this piece and were very accurate and clear with all the notes. But what was missing for me was the lilt of the 6/8 time. You seem to have really good control of your fingers and I'd love to see you use that to be a bit more expressive with the music. Instead of just playing it straight all the way through, try to add some dynamics or timbre changes. Maybe also try playing repeats different. Just some thoughts.

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Chariot0
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Chariot0 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:51 pm

I JUST ran across this. This is relevant and I think could be useful food for thought for everyone in this project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBqo0i0e_QI

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:31 pm

Chariot0 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:51 pm
I JUST ran across this. This is relevant and I think could be useful food for thought for everyone in this project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBqo0i0e_QI
Just listened to the clip, Roger, and I really enjoyed it, thank you. I hope one day I'll be able to express myself on the guitar as Tilman Hoppstock does... but it is a very faint hope, I'm afraid.

Back now to the #19. I've memorized it already and I started today playing with a metronome, at a very low tempo in the beginning and slowly increasing it until I feel it is just right :D.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:00 pm

Chariot0 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:51 pm
I JUST ran across this. This is relevant and I think could be useful food for thought for everyone in this project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBqo0i0e_QI
Oohh, this one is NICE!!!
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:03 pm

Chariot0 wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:59 pm

I know this is a late response but I've been working on this piece on and off for the last couple of weeks and I really like it. You flew through this piece and were very accurate and clear with all the notes. But what was missing for me was the lilt of the 6/8 time. You seem to have really good control of your fingers and I'd love to see you use that to be a bit more expressive with the music. Instead of just playing it straight all the way through, try to add some dynamics or timbre changes. Maybe also try playing repeats different. Just some thoughts.
And this is one of my personal deviltries of making a recording. By the time I have made 5 or 8 attempts and had SOME sort of unacceptable error on each try, I end up becoming very mechanical in order to get the thing finished. I would say that in a live performance setting, you would hear something else presented (and also probably a few more little rattly and buzzy mistakes!).
David Norton
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Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:11 pm

hello all,

here a video of Sor op 60 nr 16.
it is still work in progress but i decided to share with you.

https://youtu.be/b5BC4QmP82A

regards,
joannes

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:04 am

Very nice playing, Joannes, and "welcome back to the project."
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT

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