Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:03 pm

Hi all, Hi Jorge,

As we discuss Op 60 from Sor - maybe this question belongs somewhere else but it could be interesting for everyone here- you mentioned you edit your uploads, yes?

don't you think it will in the end turns against you?
how can you evaluate your progress.
Is there a specific reason you edit or is the road to learn from your 'one takes' too long?

do we not all have to learn to live with our mistakes while playing/recording
this is also a learning curve

i would be happy to have your/or someones feedback on this.

joannes

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:30 pm

David Norton wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:41 pm
Jorge,

I must point out that your advice to me on #10 is inconsistent. First you suggest this --
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:54 am


There follows now the #10, a simple but extremely beautiful composition, one that deserves to be memorized as well. My advice: don't overdo on the stops, let the notes ring...
And then a day later you state this --
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:06 pm


As for your #10, please pay attention to the rest in measure 12, it is important.

You see the discrepancy of course.
May be not, David, what I meant was that you can play this composition without too much concern with the value of the notes ("let them ring...", I said), it will sound nicely in this way. However, in beat 6 of measure 12 you have an eight rest in both the treble and the bass lines, so, although you may let ring the F chord notes of beat 5, you should wait for beat 7 to strike the F bass and proceed from there. If you play this piece with a metronome you will see what I meant.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, CSA RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, CSA RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:31 pm

Joannes, speaking for myself, it usually takes me 3 to 6 attempts to get a video I am pleased with. And I KNOW that when I have gotten through 80% of the work successfully, meaning no "STOP" level errors detected thus far in the process, that those last few measures subjectively seem to take about two hours to get through. :) There was one, #4 I think, that I made an unacceptable error in the last measure; I simply missed a note fully. Annoyance multiplied!

If after 6 attempts, I cannot deliver an acceptable video, well that tells me that the Lesson is just not ready yet, so I put away the camera and revisit the study process.
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mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:03 pm

I see little issue with editing recordings - especially in the context of this thread.

A recording may be scrutinized in detail, at length and over and over again.

There is none of the spontaneity, human factors, or other mitigating elements that we have with a live performance in a hall (I will become more annoyed to listen over and over again to a missed note in a recording, or an extra noise here or there, whereas in a live setting I may not even notice at all, or am less likely to care about it).

Of course in our own paths toward whatever level of mastery we seek, it is a goal to play without mistakes and to always find new ways to improve our playing technique and musicality. Making recordings however, is in many ways it's own art with constraints and nuances - the aim hopefully is to make these recordings in order to share musical ideas. Especially in this context of a group concurrently learning these Sor studies.

In any case, recordings by professional artists are often edited - this is normal practice as far as I understand it.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:12 pm

Henny wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:03 pm
Hi all, Hi Jorge,

As we discuss Op 60 from Sor - maybe this question belongs somewhere else but it could be interesting for everyone here- you mentioned you edit your uploads, yes?

don't you think it will in the end turns against you?
how can you evaluate your progress.
Is there a specific reason you edit or is the road to learn from your 'one takes' too long?

do we not all have to learn to live with our mistakes while playing/recording
this is also a learning curve

i would be happy to have your/or someones feedback on this.

joannes
Hi Joannes:

Thanks for introducing this theme, which I also think is of interest to us all. Let me then explain my position.

Since the beginning of this thread I always stated that when I feel I'm ready to record a new piece I start doing it as best as I can (I use the Handy Record App from ZOOM in my iPhone and an iRig external microphone connected to the iPhone via a Lightning to 3.5 mm Headphone Jack Adapter). But inevitably, along the way I make a mistake, be it a wrong note, a wrong tempo, whatever. When that happens I do not stop recording, I just restart the corresponding section or phrase and carry on until the next mistake happens. Again, I restart playing the section... and so on, until the end of the piece is reached. This recording phase can take me 10 to 15 minutes, depending on the length of the piece and the number of sections I had to repeat. I then transfer the audio file in the iPhone to my PC and with an audio editor, Audacity, I cut the bad sections and string together the good ones so as to have, in the end, an audio file with a complete rendition of the piece, which I, then, post in this Forum.

Why do I do this? Why not simply do a record in a single take, with errors and post the file anyway for everybody to listen to and comment? For two reasons: firstly, it is very unpleasant for anyone to listen to a piece with blatant errors, it would be unkind of me and, secondly, it would take me ages to reach a stage whereby I can play pieces two or three minutes long without mistakes and only then proceed to the next piece in the Opus. So I prefer to post an edited piece, listen to your critics and recommendations and, eventually, post a better version some time later, edited as well, where necessary. But this is not an uncommon practice. Anybody imagines that when a professional player goes to a studio to record a CD all the pieces come out straight, clean and without mistakes? No, in a recording studio the sound technician has at his disposal powerful editing tools, just to make sure that the final product is something people will buy and will always find pleasure to listen to.

In summary, when I do a record of a piece, albeit and edited one, I have it already "in my fingers", I really can play it from beginning to end, in spite of small mistakes that can pop out here and there. Moreover, as part of my daily practice, I play once or twice each and everyone of the Opus 60 pieces I have learned so far. As a result, and I checked it today, the way I now play the #1, for instance, has nothing to do with what I posted on 10-Dec-2016. And the same goes for the #3, the #5, the #12 (which I posted twice, I think), or the #16, which I posted also three times but is not yet right and I keep on rehearsing it so as to post it a fourth time, at the same time that I'm exploring the #19.

And this is my contribution to this discussion.

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, CSA RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, CSA RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:39 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:34 am
..... I have one comment/question, though. I noticed that, in the first repeat and in the first run of the second section, you played some notes in staccato mode as well as ponticello. The resulting sound is rather different from the one I've seen so far for this piece and my general question for all those following this thread and who are more knowledgeable than I am in Music theory and interpretation is the following: is the use of staccato a choice of the interpreter or is it something, like harmonics, for instance, that should be indicated in the score?...
Wait while I saddle up my favourite hobby horse ... :war:
To unpack this a little more; firstly, there's a large difference between the addition of harmonics and the addition of staccato and other articulations.

Without getting terribly boring and historically contextual, consider this ...

- the works of the composer contemporaries of Sor who wrote entirely for piano, orchestra etc, are nowadays always published with marks of articulation, phrase marks (aka slurs but not in the guitarist's technical sense). In many cases these are editorial additions or clarifications of the marks found in the autograph copies and early editions of those composers.
- for whatever reason, 19th century guitarist composers (and still today ...) rarely marked articulations - I can think of perhaps 8 in all the Sor studies.
- we can, and I think should, study mainstream instrument articulation practice and apply it as appropriate to guitar repertoire, certainly from Sor's time.
- this is of course optional, and does require extra effort, especially in RH technique.
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Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:21 am

Thanks Stephan,

i fully agree to take care of dynamics etc..when studying a piece of Music.
we always can come back to our previous decisions and change them.
We get more control and experience using the whole range of our instrument.
like you said:''and does require extra effort, especially in RH technique''

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:52 am

Hi Jorge,

thanks for your feedback on editing your recordings.
i can agree with you, it is a different approach but not bad at all.
I do not like to edit mostly because of the work it takes.
On the other hand it also takes time to work on technique to eliminate mistakes when recording.

again thanks for the feedback
joannes

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:56 pm

I'm now posting Sor's Opus 60 #19 for you all, my friends, to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my recently acquired Ryoji Matsuoka No.40 1979 with D'Addario EJ46FF Pro-Arte Carbon, Dynacore Basses High Tension strings (1 month, 11 days old :D). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. My impressions of this piece are, as usual, in green:

Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 19. Learning period: 23Dec17 - 25Jan18 Comment: the difficulty in this piece lies in mechanizing your i and m fingers to do the two G and D pedal notes in the first section. Listening to the record I noticed some note splitting here and there, but I'm aware of it and I'll correct them in time. I've also seen it played at a faster tempo. For the moment, however, this is the best I can do without too many mistakes.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #19.wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #19.mp3

So, now, the table of posted studies is the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 25Jan18.png

My next self-assignment is to post a sound file of the #20 study and, as (still) recommended by Stephen Kenyon, to post as well a rendition of the #16 with a clear passage on the fast notes. Concerning these fast notes, I was playing these slurs in a wrong way, just lifting the fingers from the string, instead of plucking it with my LH fingers :oops:. Doing it the right way seems to be easier :D.
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, CSA RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, CSA RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Chariot0
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Chariot0 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:41 pm

Jorge! That was wonderful! Was this played all in one take or did you piece together multiple takes? In other recordings I could hear where you pieced multiple takes but I couldn't hear it this time. Don't worry about speed, that will come with time. I think you did the smart thing by staying a little slower and getting all the notes right. The only critique I would make is to lower the volume on repeating notes on beats 2 and 3 and 5 and 6. You want to make sure the melody stands out and on the second half I felt like the repeating notes really jumped out at me. I don't know if anyone has ever recommended this to you before but one thing I've been told to do and I think this piece could benefit from it is to only play the melody notes for practice. So ignore all those repeating notes on 2, 3 and 5, 6 and just play the melody and really make it sing. In fact, try singing it as you play. :)

Cheers,
Roger

mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:47 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:56 pm
I'm now posting Sor's Opus 60 #19 for you all, my friends, to listen to and comment...
Nice work Jorge. Did you find that the harmonic/structural analysis helped boost your interpretation?

Only constructive comment I'll add is to carefully consider your thumb placement with the plucking hand. It is perhaps impossible to remove all extra sounds, but I think you might be able to reduce the buzzing of the thumb nail against an already ringing string when it must be re-plucked (this is most clearly heard in the B section).

Keep up the good work!

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:20 pm

Chariot0 wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:41 pm
Jorge! That was wonderful! Was this played all in one take or did you piece together multiple takes? In other recordings I could hear where you pieced multiple takes but I couldn't hear it this time. Don't worry about speed, that will come with time. I think you did the smart thing by staying a little slower and getting all the notes right. The only critique I would make is to lower the volume on repeating notes on beats 2 and 3 and 5 and 6. You want to make sure the melody stands out and on the second half I felt like the repeating notes really jumped out at me. I don't know if anyone has ever recommended this to you before but one thing I've been told to do and I think this piece could benefit from it is to only play the melody notes for practice. So ignore all those repeating notes on 2, 3 and 5, 6 and just play the melody and really make it sing. In fact, try singing it as you play. :)

Cheers,
Roger
Many thanks for your nice words, Roger, and... no, no, not one take only, unfortunately, during the recording I made several mistakes and had to repeat entire sections or relevant measures, the good ones being stitched together afterwards :). Apparently, this time I did quite a nice editing job... :D. Well this is not a difficult piece, in time I'll be able to play it straight with no major mistakes, I'm sure, and faster than I do today, as well, but not that much faster, it's already quite pleasant to hear it as it is. As of lowering the volume (or, instead, playing sul tasto?) in the repeat notes of measure 2, 3 and 5, 6, I fully agree, I've seen it already being played like that and it sounds nicer, I'll be taking that in consideration from now onwards, thank you. And I may even post a more firm and elaborate rendition, I may have done too much rubato in this one :(.

And what about you? Working hard on the #5? As of me, I'm correcting my slurs also in this one... :cry: :)

Regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, CSA RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, CSA RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:51 pm

mainterm wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:47 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:56 pm
I'm now posting Sor's Opus 60 #19 for you all, my friends, to listen to and comment...
Nice work Jorge. Did you find that the harmonic/structural analysis helped boost your interpretation?

Only constructive comment I'll add is to carefully consider your thumb placement with the plucking hand. It is perhaps impossible to remove all extra sounds, but I think you might be able to reduce the buzzing of the thumb nail against an already ringing string when it must be re-plucked (this is most clearly heard in the B section).

Keep up the good work!
Thank you, mainterm, for your encouraging words. And, no, not really, I don't think my harmonic/structural "analysis" :) helped that much. But it is good to know that such tool/technique exists, it may be useful in other pieces, who knows.

The buzzing... :x Yes, to my surprise I did notice it when I was already editing the piece. It was my intention to make a comment about it in the post but I was rushing out to collect my Kuniharo Nobe from my luthier, Christian Schwelenger (the neck of the guitar was a bit bent and the fretboard had to be partially shaved and a new one glued on top of it) and... I forgot. The funny thing is that I don't hear this buzzing that much when I'm playing... but the microphone did capture it :). Anyway, I have to see how can I avoid it and, hopefully on my V2 of this rendition it may have been minimized.

Thanks again for listening and for your constructive comments.

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, CSA RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, CSA RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:19 am

Hi Jorge,

thanks for posting nr 19
you had already some valuable feedback.
speed is really not the most important here.
musicality - playing the melody - the phrasing - articulation - flow - this can all be done slowly
work with speed burst = with metronome play one bar one time slow = one time the same bar in the dubble tempo then continue if you feel comfortable to do this for all of the bars and focus on the bars that give you most of the problems.
link 2 bars together but go slowly in playing more bars in the beginning.
you will notice your speed will increase quickly.
regards,
joannes

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:28 am

Henny wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:19 am
Hi Jorge,

thanks for posting nr 19
you had already some valuable feedback.
speed is really not the most important here.
musicality - playing the melody - the phrasing - articulation - flow - this can all be done slowly
work with speed burst = with metronome play one bar one time slow = one time the same bar in the double tempo then continue if you feel comfortable to do this for all of the bars and focus on the bars that give you most of the problems.
link 2 bars together but go slowly in playing more bars in the beginning.
you will notice your speed will increase quickly.
regards,
joannes
Hi Joannes:

Thanks for listening and commenting my rendition of the #19, as well as for the valuable advice :). It is my intention to post a second record one of these days paying more attention to the tempo, I think there is too much rubato in it. Also, my Dutch friend from Delft, called my attention to a missing G, the third in the bass line, in the first repeat of measure 4, which has to be corrected. I'll also try eliminate the notorious buzzing in the pedal notes, most notably, the D bass in the second section. Finally, I'll see if I can follow the advice of Roger concerning the volume of the repeats in measures 2/3 and 5/6. Lots of work to do, then... and starting with the #20 as well :D.

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, CSA RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, CSA RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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