Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:09 pm

Henny, as mentioned several times prior: I agree with your assessment of stiffness here. But for me, when the red Recording light goes on, I invariably tense up and get anxious. My total focus is on hitting every note clearly; even a .10mm deviation in finger placement on either hand will cause an unacceptable sound. And particularly in this case, where the far-and-away most difficult bit is at the very end, the issue is magnified. #16 is something of a technical obstacle course which Sor has devised. I was simply happy that I could "land standing on both feet" at the end. To do this while simultaneously creating a nuanced interpretation? A nice concept, but too far a stretch.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:16 pm

Yes, David, as Henny says, the #16 is rather difficult. Í can play it satisfactorily except for the fast slurs of measure 46. I've been struggling with them over the last three months and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to play them cleanly, in tempo and consistently. But I keep on trying, in the hope that one day, God willing :), I'll succeed. When that day comes, I'll post another rendition - it will be the fourth :oops:.

With your rendition, David, the table of posted records becomes:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 03Feb18.png
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:06 pm

Hi David,

by no means i want to upset someone with my comments.
we are here learning from each other and i fully understand the difficulties in our learing curve.
in my view when approaching a piece from a musical point of view rather then a technical point of view we may miss notes but we will feel confident in our musical perception and play it with mistakes but without (too many) musical mistakes.
if we focus on the technical aspect we will most of the time be frustrated missing a note or 2 as you clearly pointed out.
this will get worse as the musical aspect gets more difficult, i do not see any other way then to change our approach from more technical to a more musical (and from there tackle the issues.)
so the 32e notes can be played slower as it will not harm too much the musical part (as it is an embellishment)
every one has a different path to climb the mountain but we all want to go to the top or near bye at least.
i hope you see my point
regards,

joannes

mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:09 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:16 pm
Yes, David, as Henny says, the #16 is rather difficult. Í can play it satisfactorily except for the fast slurs of measure 46. I've been struggling with them over the last three months and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to play them cleanly, in tempo and consistently.
<snip>
Hello Jorge,

May I ask what specifically you are doing to work on the slurs in m.46?

Three months seems a long time to continually have this feeling that they may never be "good" enough...

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:03 am

A different sub-topic to this thread: the inconsistencies of Sor's notation.

Here are several examples of inconsistent notation in the original (facsimile) of Op. 60. The David Grimes (Mel Bay) edition I am using faithfully replicates these oddities. Most involve a rest appearing one place, but not at another when the exact same phrase is recapped later on. Others are inconsistent not values, a dot placed one time but not at another.

For example:
Sor 11.jpg

Sor 13.jpg

Sor 14.jpg

Sor 15.jpg


Am I [perhaps] the only one who is pedantic enough that these inconsistencies are a genuine bother?
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Philosopherguy
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Philosopherguy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:17 am

David Norton wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:03 am
A different sub-topic to this thread: the inconsistencies of Sor's notation.

Here are several examples of inconsistent notation in the original (facsimile) of Op. 60. The David Grimes (Mel Bay) edition I am using faithfully replicates these oddities. Most involve a rest appearing one place, but not at another when the exact same phrase is recapped later on. Others are inconsistent not values, a dot placed one time but not at another.

Am I [perhaps] the only one who is pedantic enough that these inconsistencies are a genuine bother?
I see your confusion. I checked my version and it has the same notation as yours did. So, I just got my version online from what looks to be an old German publication. I forget at this point which resource I got it from. You might take a roundup of all the versions online and see if they all have the same notation. You might very well find some differences. That being said, some of the interesting points that you have focussed on make a little bit of sense to me as to how long he holds the notes vs damping. Further, given that these were etudes, one of the lessons might have been to play the notes for the allotted time, which was changing to add a tiny bit of complexity to the sound.

For example, the F# in #11 at bar 2 having a different length than one later may lead one to believe that Sor thought the single notes to introduce the next bar after bar 2 was, for some reason, appropriate. So, you have a f# held for 3 beats and then a lone d held for 2 beats to make sure that the F# is separated for the leadup to the lone F# to ring in the next bar. Perhaps play that lone f# with a little extra something. I have no idea really, just a suggestion on what he MIGHT have been thinking. Sor didn't tend to mark many staccatos or too many accents. Maybe try something like that and see how it sounds, or just a different emphasis on those notes.

Some of these pieces if you think about them like jumpy little dances or something tend to sound better to the mind when you are imagining them as such. To play them like that takes skill, which I don't personally quite have yet. But, when you are sitting here looking at them they definitely have a playful spirit to them. I mean #20 seems to have a more serious air to it, #11 definitely sounds like a playful little dance to me, as does #13. Interesting pieces for sure!

Just my opinion.

Martin
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:59 pm

David Norton wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:03 am
A different sub-topic to this thread: the inconsistencies of Sor's notation.

Here are several examples of inconsistent notation in the original (facsimile) of Op. 60. The David Grimes (Mel Bay) edition I am using faithfully replicates these oddities. Most involve a rest appearing one place, but not at another when the exact same phrase is recapped later on. Others are inconsistent not values, a dot placed one time but not at another.

For example:

Sor 11.jpg



Sor 13.jpg



Sor 14.jpg



Sor 15.jpg



Am I [perhaps] the only one who is pedantic enough that these inconsistencies are a genuine bother?
Hi David:

The Forum site underwent maintenance this morning and after that I could no longer see the four .jpg files in your post - the system simply says "The selected attachment does not exist anymore.". Would you please reinstate them again at your convenience? Many thanks,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:58 pm

Sor 11.jpg

Sor 13.jpg

Sor 14.jpg

Sor 15.jpg
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:08 pm

mainterm wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:09 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:16 pm
Yes, David, as Henny says, the #16 is rather difficult. Í can play it satisfactorily except for the fast slurs of measure 46. I've been struggling with them over the last three months and I'm not sure I'll ever be able to play them cleanly, in tempo and consistently.
<snip>
Hello Jorge,

May I ask what specifically you are doing to work on the slurs in m.46?

Three months seems a long time to continually have this feeling that they may never be "good" enough...
Hi mainterm:

Thanks for coming to my rescue! :D Indeed, I'm a little lost concerning what to do with the very fast notes in m.46 of the #16. When I started with this piece, some three months ago, after memorizing it I used a metronome to stabilize my tempo and also to gain a little bit of speed. Eventually, m.38 was under control, but never the m.46. I zoomed in in that portion of the piece, set up the metronome to ever increasing speeds, but, no matter what I did, I could not play those notes with the necessary speed so as to stay within the selected overall tempo (around 1/4 = 40 bpm). That is, I could achieve it, but then, most of the times the notes did not come out loud and clear, as they should, always. This was obvious in my posted renditions, as gracefully pointed by Stephen Kenyon :), so I moved on to the following pieces, the #17 and subsequent ones, but kept on playing the #16, though not as intensely as before - two or three times a day - in the hope that, somehow, in time, I would be able to tame the infamous m.46 - never happened, unfortunately.

However, quite recently, to my dismay, Roger (Chariot0) called my attention for the (wrong) way I was doing the slurs - just pulling off the LH finger, instead of plucking the string with it (I'm now correcting all the slurs in Sor's Opus 60 pieces I've learned so far). And some hope descended upon me :D: doing the slurs in the correct way had an immediate effect - I was getting a more even volume for all the notes of m.46. But I'm not there yet in terms of clarity and speed. Now, is there any suggestion you care to make that may help me to overcome this difficulty? It would be most welcome.

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:05 pm

David Norton wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:03 am
Here are several examples of inconsistent notation in the original (facsimile) of Op. 60. The David Grimes (Mel Bay) edition I am using faithfully replicates these oddities. Most involve a rest appearing one place, but not at another when the exact same phrase is recapped later on. Others are inconsistent not values, a dot placed one time but not at another.
<snip>
Am I [perhaps] the only one who is pedantic enough that these inconsistencies are a genuine bother?
There are quite a number of "oddities" in Sor's op.60 (and other editions from this time). All sorts of stuff with respect to beaming, voices/rests and so on. As I'm sure you know, this is par for that pre-20th century course - as modern editing practices and layout and printing technologies have evolved over the past 150 years, notational standardization has increased as well. I suspect that many of these oddities result from or at least tangentially related to the technology of the time.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I've been working on a modern edition of the op.60 pieces. It's a big project - ongoing on and off for the past 3 months or so. The purpose of this project is to both transcribe (which is what most modern editions have done) the original source material but also to re-set the notation to modern music notation standards.

Idiosyncrasies in guitar notation form part of the difficulty of working with these sources when the aim is to adopt modern conventions instead of replicating old ones. (e.g. conflation of a longer note values with shorter ones in another voice)

I've long completed the transcription portion of the project - there are some little editorial fixes, layout and fiddly bits to finalize, but this is done. I'm now deep into "updating" the pieces. I'm nearly done with 1-6 and 17-25.

If you'd like to review these, PM me. I'd only ask that you provide critical feedback :)

mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:49 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:08 pm
<snip>...most of the times the notes did not come out loud and clear, as they should, always. This was obvious in my posted renditions...<snip>
Hi Jorge, it is quite difficult to find solutions to this kind of problem without seeing you play.

I'll have a listen back to your posts to see if I can hear anything specific.

Most commonly, I find that problems with fretting hand facility with fast passages stems from lack of finger independence and/or stamina (meaning the finger/arm muscles fatigue quickly and do not recover to optimal performance).

Of course any problem may be a direct result of too much tension in the position and movements, so body, shoulder, arm, hand position and muscle engagement. There is a lot of information about this stuff on the DC forum and also in books and other online resources.

vis-a-vis finger independence work: carefully executed slur and scale exercises as well as sequences which specifically target finger independence. All of this material is potentially tricky to "assign" to a learner without seeing them in person to evaluate their playing ability. You don't want to start working on exercises which are too difficult and may unnecessarily strain the hand and related muscles.

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:29 pm

mainterm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:05 pm

If you'd like to review these, PM me. I'd only ask that you provide critical feedback :)
Thank you for the invitation; I must decline for the time being due to too many other activities going on in my "real life".
David Norton
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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:39 pm

David Norton wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:58 pm
Composers of the period often did not write with mathematical precision. It was left to the performer to figure out how long notes should actually be held. This is especially true of bass notes on the beat and long treble notes on the beat. I am not sure that it makes a huge difference on an early Romantic guitar, because the gut strings do not have the sustain of modern strings; therefore, I am not sure it makes a difference if a treble note is a dotted quater note or a dotted half note. Musicologist Richard Yates wrote an article about the practice of leaving it up to the performer how long notes should really be, Unfortunately, I was not able to locate that article right now. It is worth looking through his articles (search for them on the web) because they are full of information.
Yisrael van Handel
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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:51 pm

One thing I am realizing via this project is that "my" main focus here is on textual accuracy. Interpretation, expressiveness, musicality are all subjective. Precision in hitting the notes accurately and for the correct duration is not, it is a clear "Yes/No".

I will aim to rethink this approach for future Lessons.
David Norton
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mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:06 pm

mainterm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:49 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:08 pm
<snip>...most of the times the notes did not come out loud and clear, as they should, always. This was obvious in my posted renditions...<snip>
<snip>
I'll have a listen back to your posts to see if I can hear anything specific.
<snip>
Hi Jorge - I listened to your V1 and V2 recordings submitted 22-sep-17 and 08-nov-17. In terms of the slurs they seem essentially the same to me.

In these recordings you initiate both the 6 (m.38) and 7 (m.46) note groups late. Within each of these groups you initiate the second slur series late and then, also late to the party is the second beat, 7-6 suspension over F#/A.

Your LH fingers are actually moving quite fast and the notes are more or less clear. The issue you have is rhythmic timing, control and coordination - not speed. You may already be aware of all of this but it may help to restate the problem.

As for how to fix it, and without actually seeing you play, I suggest the following (applies to both measures). Keep in mind that you have muscle memories to erase and re-write - not an easy task:

1. set your metronome to click with every note. Start slowly and play each slur set this way. Be sure to include the down-beat in both cases (G/B 1/4 note diad) and the arrival of beat two (D7-6 chord). Only when you are able to execute this movement very consistently, precisely aligned with the metronome clicks and with clear sound, speed it up a little and proceed this way until you reach tempo where the clicks are too fast to make any sense.

2. practice the slur sets with LH alone - pluck the 'g' but no secondary articulation and focus on making each note of equal duration. Teach your LH what it feels like to do this. If you can visualize this movement clearly, and have a strong kinesthetic sense of it, it becomes much easier to speed it up.

These exercises should help you establish more control over these gestures when performing the piece - presumably to make them interesting in some way, not metronomic.

For example, when I play this piece I do not play these notes with perfectly even onsets (as I've described for practice above). I think they should be more nuanced.

Good luck!

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