Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:38 pm

mainterm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:06 pm
...
Hi Jorge - I listened to your V1 and V2 recordings submitted 22-sep-17 and 08-nov-17. In terms of the slurs they seem essentially the same to me.

In these recordings you initiate both the 6 (m.38) and 7 (m.46) note groups late. Within each of these groups you initiate the second slur series late and then, also late to the party is the second beat, 7-6 suspension over F#/A.

Your LH fingers are actually moving quite fast and the notes are more or less clear. The issue you have is rhythmic timing, control and coordination - not speed. You may already be aware of all of this but it may help to restate the problem.

As for how to fix it, and without actually seeing you play, I suggest the following (applies to both measures). Keep in mind that you have muscle memories to erase and re-write - not an easy task:

1. set your metronome to click with every note. Start slowly and play each slur set this way. Be sure to include the down-beat in both cases (G/B 1/4 note diad) and the arrival of beat two (D7-6 chord). Only when you are able to execute this movement very consistently, precisely aligned with the metronome clicks and with clear sound, speed it up a little and proceed this way until you reach tempo where the clicks are too fast to make any sense.

2. practice the slur sets with LH alone - pluck the 'g' but no secondary articulation and focus on making each note of equal duration. Teach your LH what it feels like to do this. If you can visualize this movement clearly, and have a strong kinesthetic sense of it, it becomes much easier to speed it up.

These exercises should help you establish more control over these gestures when performing the piece - presumably to make them interesting in some way, not metronomic.

For example, when I play this piece I do not play these notes with perfectly even onsets (as I've described for practice above). I think they should be more nuanced.

Good luck!
Hi mainterm:

Thank you so much for listening to my renditions of the #16 and for identifying the things I'm doing wrong in those two slurs - m.38 and m.46. What you say makes perfect sense. I can see it clearly now: I start the first note of the slurs too late, I do not allocate an equal time to each note of the slur, and, naturally, also end late, and therefore, do not succeed in entering the following measures within the right tempo. I'll work, then, with the metronome, starting tomorrow, focusing specifically in the slurs so as to reset and correct my muscle memory. I'm sure I'll succeed, I just need some time for that and, hopefully, in less than a fortnight I'll be able to post an acceptable new version of the #16 (an extremely beautiful piece, by the way). Thanks again for this "push" :D, I really needed it.

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:39 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:12 pm
Henny wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:03 pm
Hi all, Hi Jorge,

As we discuss Op 60 from Sor - maybe this question belongs somewhere else but it could be interesting for everyone here- you mentioned you edit your uploads, yes?

don't you think it will in the end turns against you?
how can you evaluate your progress.
Is there a specific reason you edit or is the road to learn from your 'one takes' too long?

do we not all have to learn to live with our mistakes while playing/recording
this is also a learning curve

i would be happy to have your/or someones feedback on this.

joannes
Hi Joannes:

Thanks for introducing this theme, which I also think is of interest to us all. Let me then explain my position.

Since the beginning of this thread I always stated that when I feel I'm ready to record a new piece I start doing it as best as I can (I use the Handy Record App from ZOOM in my iPhone and an iRig external microphone connected to the iPhone via a Lightning to 3.5 mm Headphone Jack Adapter). But inevitably, along the way I make a mistake, be it a wrong note, a wrong tempo, whatever. When that happens I do not stop recording, I just restart the corresponding section or phrase and carry on until the next mistake happens. Again, I restart playing the section... and so on, until the end of the piece is reached. This recording phase can take me 10 to 15 minutes, depending on the length of the piece and the number of sections I had to repeat. I then transfer the audio file in the iPhone to my PC and with an audio editor, Audacity, I cut the bad sections and string together the good ones so as to have, in the end, an audio file with a complete rendition of the piece, which I, then, post in this Forum.

Why do I do this? Why not simply do a record in a single take, with errors and post the file anyway for everybody to listen to and comment? For two reasons: firstly, it is very unpleasant for anyone to listen to a piece with blatant errors, it would be unkind of me and, secondly, it would take me ages to reach a stage whereby I can play pieces two or three minutes long without mistakes and only then proceed to the next piece in the Opus. So I prefer to post an edited piece, listen to your critics and recommendations and, eventually, post a better version some time later, edited as well, where necessary. But this is not an uncommon practice. Anybody imagines that when a professional player goes to a studio to record a CD all the pieces come out straight, clean and without mistakes? No, in a recording studio the sound technician has at his disposal powerful editing tools, just to make sure that the final product is something people will buy and will always find pleasure to listen to.

In summary, when I do a record of a piece, albeit and edited one, I have it already "in my fingers", I really can play it from beginning to end, in spite of small mistakes that can pop out here and there. Moreover, as part of my daily practice, I play once or twice each and everyone of the Opus 60 pieces I have learned so far. As a result, and I checked it today, the way I now play the #1, for instance, has nothing to do with what I posted on 10-Dec-2016. And the same goes for the #3, the #5, the #12 (which I posted twice, I think), or the #16, which I posted also three times but is not yet right and I keep on rehearsing it so as to post it a fourth time, at the same time that I'm exploring the #19.

And this is my contribution to this discussion.

Best regards,

Jorge
We recently discussed in this Topic, briefly, the question of recording by sections or on a single take our little pieces. Apparently, this issue is an already old one in the Forum and today I stumbled upon it in this thread Is recording in sections cheating?. It started in 2014 but it is still alive today. Interesting stuff! I read only the first couple of pages and, apparently, recording by sections, for various reasons, is quite normal :).
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Chariot0
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Chariot0 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:07 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:22 pm
My first rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #19 had one missing note - the third G in the bass line of measure 5 during the second repeat - and there was also an highly audible, and quite irritating, buzzing in the pedal notes of the second section, specially the E bass. As promised, I prepared a second rendition where the notes are all there (I think :)) and the buzzing is not so noticeable - but it is still there and I have no idea how can I get rid of it completely :?.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used, however, was another one, my recently acquired and repaired/adjusted Kuniharu Nobe #8 from 1972 (45 years old, a real Japanese vintage guitar :D, but with an excellent sound and a pleasure to play with), also fitted with D'Addario EJ46FF Pro-Arte Carbon, Dynacore Basses High Tension strings (just 11 days old). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #19_data (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #19 (V2).mp3

Comments, if any, are most welcome.
Hi Jorge! I'm sorry for the late response, it has been busy as of late here but I just had some free time and realized I hadn't visited this forum in awhile. Your second rendition of #19 was very nice. Keep up the great work my friend. I'm sure you've already begun working on #20. I was planning on recording #6 but then things got busy and I have not had a chance to work on it. I'm hoping to have #6 and #7 posted sometime towards the end of next week with #8 and #9 not too far behind.

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:54 pm

Chariot0 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:07 pm
...
Hi Jorge! I'm sorry for the late response, it has been busy as of late here but I just had some free time and realized I hadn't visited this forum in awhile. Your second rendition of #19 was very nice. Keep up the great work my friend. I'm sure you've already begun working on #20. I was planning on recording #6 but then things got busy and I have not had a chance to work on it. I'm hoping to have #6 and #7 posted sometime towards the end of next week with #8 and #9 not too far behind.
Thank you so much, Roger, for your kind words concerning my second version of the #19. There is this buzzing, though, on the two pedal notes in the second section - two Ds - which I don't know how to eliminate. May be growing the nail of my thumb and shaping it appropriately, I don't know... :(

Yes, I'm already working on the #20. Technically it is not difficult, but is is a a rather long piece and do not have it yet memorized. Once in memory I'll work with a metronome to steady the rhythm and smooth the transition of the phrases (did not do any analysis, though :)). Meanwhile, I'm also working on an assignment mainterm gave me concerning the two fast slurs (thanks to you, I'm now doing them correctly) of the #16. I did post two versions of this piece in the recent past but in none of them measures 38 and 46 are played as they should, within the tempo. The drilling is going well and I'll post what I expect to be a satisfactory rendition within a couple of weeks or even earlier.

As for the pieces you are now working on, the #7 introduces some rather new fingering for the RH and it took me quite a while until I could play it straight. The #8 is quite simple and the #9 is only challenging if you want to play it in a fast tempo (as I think it should).
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:16 am

Here is my version of Number 17. Unlike the very difficult rhythms of No. 16, this one looks -- at first blush -- to be a simple arpeggio study. But Sor seems to take devilish pleasure in largely avoiding anything resembling a genuine right hand "pattern" here. I can't help wondering if this is a sort of parody on certain students who flail away at playing a pattern, yet end up getting twisted around every which way. The leaping transition of the third finger from the last F# of m22 to the bass G of m23 is treacherous. No other "solution" seemed any better, so I had to draw on muscle memory of a D7 to G major chord change, from many years of playing folk songs. Not perfect, but tolerable at tempo.




Recorded on my Kenny Hill "Madrid".
Last edited by David Norton on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:44 pm

David Norton wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:16 am
Here is my version of Number 17. Unlike the very difficult rhythms of No. 16, this one looks -- at first blush -- to be a simple arpeggio study. But Sor seems to take devilish pleasure in largely avoiding anything resembling a genuine right hand "pattern" here. I can't help wondering if this is a sort of parody on certain students who flail away at playing a pattern, yet end up getting twisted around every which way. The leaping transition of the third finger from the last F# of m22 to the bass G of m23 is treacherous. No other "solution" seemed any better, so I had to draw on muscle memory of a D7 to G major chord change, from many years of playing folk songs. Not perfect, but tolerable at tempo.

...

Recorded on my Kenny Hill "Madrid".
Well done, David, a good tempo and a good tone. This #17 is indeed an exercise for getting some independence in the right hand. The sequence you pluck the strings can be the same as you move the LH from position to position, but sometimes it changes unexpectedly.

In measure 22 I thought you were doing a mistake, it didn't sound the same as when I played... but then, I went to check the score and you are right, the whole measure is indeed an A minor chord and I was playing it as an A Major chord, I have to correct myself. The funny thing is that it sounds good either way... :)

With this rendition of yours, the table of posted records becomes
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 14Feb18.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:23 pm

Entry number 18:



The new "tagless embedding tool" seems to work well!

The main test for this Lesson is to get the four-note arpeggio flowing properly, a technique that Sor doubles-down on in the upcoming #24. I found this easiest to play using Sor's p-i-m-i fingering, even where modern-day playing might indicate use of the A finger. One nasty chord in m25, a stretch chord which would certainly be easier to grasp on a shorter-scale instrument. From m26 to m33, Sor seems to get into a compositional rut, repeating the same E-B7 figuration multiple times. As with much of #17, I wonder if this is a not-so-subtle "dig" at the uninspired nature of some of the studies and etudes by his contemporaries, or a dig at amateur players who play the same passage over and over and over (which isn't a bad way of learning something, actually...)

TECH DATA: First airing [on this Op. 60 series] of my Johnny Walker guitar, cedar and black walnut, 2007. One of my favorite guitars to play, possibly due to "birthday bias": it is #559, I was born May 1959. This is the guitar I used for my 2015 CD. To my ears as a player, although not from the camera/audience, this guitar sounds identical to Pepe Romero's legendary Miguel Rodriguez guitar, so I "indulge myself in some harmless fantasy" when I am playing it. Camcorder is the usual Flip unit.

Next is number 19, which is a fun little dance type piece. Then another killer, the slurring study #20, which has me concerned due to the physical issues I have with left pinky slurring.... In due time, but that time is coming soon.
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Kent
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Kent » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:38 pm

David,
Thanks for posting all these videos. I have always passed on working these studies because they looked too elementary for me.
Now I find them of great value, musically rewarding and a great example of Sor's genius

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:30 pm

Hi Kent, The first four (single line) of Op. 60 are rather uninspiring. Things perk up from 5 to 15, and from 16 onward, the Lessons tend to get downright difficult. Offhand I'd say my favorites are Nos 7, 12, 13, 14, and maybe 15. 16 is nice, save for that miserable bleep-d'bleep 7-note slur passage towards the end, which makes the overall difficulty of 16 far disproportionate to the rest of that Lesson. 19 may be a keeper, and possibly 20 as well if I can actually learn it. 25 -- in D tuning and much of it in harmonics -- may be a keeper, too. Time will tell.
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:56 am

Here is entry #19, a simple country dance, a sort of elementary Waltz in many respects. It makes great use of the open strings, and really seems to belong earlier in the Op. 60 sequence than where it falls. Perhaps Sor is simply "being nice" to his pupils, because the last 6 Lessons, Nrs 20 to 25, are quite a bit trickier to master.






TECH DATA: Johnny Walker guitar, cedar and black walnut, 2007.

Next comes Number 20. This one will be a real challenge for me, as due to a physiological quirk in the joint structure of my left pinky, slurs are often difficult and painful. So I expect #20 to take a while to work up.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:44 pm

David Norton wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:23 pm
Entry number 18:
...

The new "tagless embedding tool" seems to work well!

The main test for this Lesson is to get the four-note arpeggio flowing properly, a technique that Sor doubles-down on in the upcoming #24. I found this easiest to play using Sor's p-i-m-i fingering, even where modern-day playing might indicate use of the A finger. One nasty chord in m25, a stretch chord which would certainly be easier to grasp on a shorter-scale instrument. From m26 to m33, Sor seems to get into a compositional rut, repeating the same E-B7 figuration multiple times. As with much of #17, I wonder if this is a not-so-subtle "dig" at the uninspired nature of some of the studies and etudes by his contemporaries, or a dig at amateur players who play the same passage over and over and over (which isn't a bad way of learning something, actually...)

TECH DATA: First airing [on this Op. 60 series] of my Johnny Walker guitar, cedar and black walnut, 2007. One of my favorite guitars to play, possibly due to "birthday bias": it is #559, I was born May 1959. This is the guitar I used for my 2015 CD. To my ears as a player, although not from the camera/audience, this guitar sounds identical to Pepe Romero's legendary Miguel Rodriguez guitar, so I "indulge myself in some harmless fantasy" when I am playing it. Camcorder is the usual Flip unit.

Next is number 19, which is a fun little dance type piece. Then another killer, the slurring study #20, which has me concerned due to the physical issues I have with left pinky slurring.... In due time, but that time is coming soon.
Very nice, David, congratulations, a very good tempo, crystal clear notes and even the horrible m25 LH positioning was handled quite well (it took me a ages to get it right :().

With this new rendition of yours, the table of posted records becomes:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 17Feb18.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:56 pm

David Norton wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:56 am
Here is entry #19, a simple country dance, a sort of elementary Waltz in many respects. It makes great use of the open strings, and really seems to belong earlier in the Op. 60 sequence than where it falls. Perhaps Sor is simply "being nice" to his pupils, because the last 6 Lessons, Nrs 20 to 25, are quite a bit trickier to master.

...


TECH DATA: Johnny Walker guitar, cedar and black walnut, 2007.

Next comes Number 20. This one will be a real challenge for me, as due to a physiological quirk in the joint structure of my left pinky, slurs are often difficult and painful. So I expect #20 to take a while to work up.
Jesus, David, give us a break, you posted the #18 yesterday and you are now done already with the #19! You are a professional indeed, no doubt :D. Anyway, nicely played this #19 and your Johnny Walker guitar, though with the name of a brand of whisky :D, is a nice one. Have you ever played with a Japanese vintage guitar? They are quite a surprise...

The table of posted records is now:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 18Feb18.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:14 pm

David Norton wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:30 pm
Hi Kent, The first four (single line) of Op. 60 are rather uninspiring. Things perk up from 5 to 15, and from 16 onward, the Lessons tend to get downright difficult. Offhand I'd say my favorites are Nos 7, 12, 13, 14, and maybe 15. 16 is nice, save for that miserable bleep-d'bleep 7-note slur passage towards the end, which makes the overall difficulty of 16 far disproportionate to the rest of that Lesson. 19 may be a keeper, and possibly 20 as well if I can actually learn it. 25 -- in D tuning and much of it in harmonics -- may be a keeper, too. Time will tell.
Yes, Fernando Sor was a surprise to me. The only piece I used to play was the Opus 31 #1, so I'm so glad I initiated this Topic. I've learned so much from all of you, Forum members... :D Any way, from Opus 60, the ones I've enjoyed most so far, from a melodic point of view, are the #1, the #4, the #5, the #6 is also quite nice, the #10 is beautiful and so is the #11, the #12 is awesome and quite challenging, the #13 is outstanding, the #14 when played properly is spectacular, the #15 in also quite nice, the #16 once the fast slurs are tamed is also quite beautiful and the #19 is also nice and stays easily in your ears (although I have no idea how I can get rid of the buzzing in the pedal notes of the second section). Further ahead, I've listened already to the #22 and it is also out of this world (lots of slurs, though, David :)).

Now, back to practising the #20. I have memorized it already...
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:19 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:14 pm
.... the #19 is also nice and stays easily in your ears (although I have no idea how I can get rid of the buzzing in the pedal notes of the second section).
A suggestion on the buzzing: it seems to occur a microsecond before the repeated D is played. Perhaps you have a small irregularity, a callous or dead skin, on the side of your thumb? The vibrating string seems to be striking this (or is being struck by this) just before engaging the nail. Maybe a quick once-over with the sanding paper will help?

You'll note many if not all of my videos have occasional buzzes caused by the left hand. My fingers are rather fat (like the rest of me...) and so the underpad of a left hand finger will at times land too close to a vibrating higher string, with a buzz resulting. I cannot say how many otherwise acceptable videos I've made, heard the buzz on the playback, and deleted that one, to record another attempt. More often, I stop midway through the video when I hear an unacceptable rattle. A difficult process! If I were to wait until ABSOLUTELY NO buzzes occurred.... well nothing of mine would be posted at all.
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Chariot0 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:34 pm

Here is my rendition of #6. I know I played a wrong note and there are some bumps and bruises. I failed at recording it earlier this week so decided to just go with whatever I got today. I want to move on but I might come back to this one because I don't feel like I recorded my best playing.

https://soundcloud.com/roger-ramirez-24/sor-op-60-nr-6

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