Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:33 pm

David Norton wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:19 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:14 pm
.... the #19 is also nice and stays easily in your ears (although I have no idea how I can get rid of the buzzing in the pedal notes of the second section).
A suggestion on the buzzing: it seems to occur a microsecond before the repeated D is played. Perhaps you have a small irregularity, a callous or dead skin, on the side of your thumb? The vibrating string seems to be striking this (or is being struck by this) just before engaging the nail. Maybe a quick once-over with the sanding paper will help?

...
Thank you, David, your explanation for my buzzing on the repeated D may be correct. Let me explain. I play with (rather short, but quite strong) nails in my RH, except for the thumb. I do have a grown nail in it but I do not use it, I play with the fleshy tip and that is, may be, what causes the buzzing - landing a large portion of skin into a vibrating string. So, one solution might be to grow the nail a bit further and play straight with. I'm going to try that and will let you know if it worked. Nevertheless, I wonder how those guitarists which play without nails at all - Rob MacKillop, for instance - cope with this problem :?.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Alexander Kalil
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Alexander Kalil » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:28 pm

David Norton wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:19 pm
the underpad of a left hand finger will at times land too close to a vibrating higher string, with a buzz resulting. I cannot say how many otherwise acceptable videos I've made, heard the buzz on the playback, and deleted that one, to record another attempt.
Try a short scale guitar with a wide neck. I recommend a 630 or even 620 scale with a 53 mm or even 54 mm nut width. Those are difficult to find, true, but are just the right type of instruments for some people. I have one which I lent to a student with a similar build; his left-hand accuracy and overall playing improved immediately.

(Another evidence you need a shorter scale is a tendency to fret notes too far from the fret (wire), which also accounts for some of the buzzes. Fretted notes sound clearest when grabbed as close as possible to the corresponding fret.)

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:30 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:28 pm

Try a short scale guitar with a wide neck. I recommend a 630 or even 620 scale with a 53 mm or even 54 mm nut width. Those are difficult to find, true, but are just the right type of instruments for some people. I have one which I lent to a student with a similar build; his left-hand accuracy and overall playing improved immediately.

(Another evidence you need a shorter scale is a tendency to fret notes too far from the fret (wire), which also accounts for some of the buzzes. Fretted notes sound clearest when grabbed as close as possible to the corresponding fret.)
Hello Alexander, and I am pleased to meet you. I see you are a new Delcamp member, one with good experience we can all benefit from. Welcome aboard.

I currently have eight guitars (down from a ridiculous tally of fourteen guitars plus two lutes some years ago!): 3 @ 650mm, 4 @ 640mm, and 1 @ 625mm which is an eight-string. All have 42mm string spacing at the nut. As these Op. 60 pieces are studies, I have opted to record most of them on the 650s, to intentionally require my left hand to stretch a bit more. It is not painful, simply a requirement to open up the hand a tiny bit farther. In terms of comfort, the 625 is very easy to play, but I find that when I spend any time at all using that one, going back to playing on the 640 and 650 sizes is more of a challenge. So rather that allowing myself the laxity of just using the easy 625 size, I make myself play on the larger scale instruments. "An exercise machine with strings?" Perhaps, but as I say, playing the 650 is not painful -- unlike the 664mm Ramirez or 660 mm Mitsuru Tamura guitars I once owned!

I've also noticed that the 650s seem to have a fuller tone to them, even though in two instances, I own both a 650 and 640 by the same builder.
David Norton
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First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

powderedtoastman
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by powderedtoastman » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:49 am

David, you are really kicking some butt at this!

I have been floating around different studies a lot and not progressing at the Sor lately, and most of the time I'm too lazy to hit record and try to get a good take, but maybe I should go on a mission to play catch-up....

My personal goal is to play to some satisfactory level through everything in Opp. 60, 44, 31 + 35 eventually and maybe even start to tackle Op. 6, but when there's so much other music out there to play it's hard to stay on track with it!

Edit -- I just noticed you have a Kenny Hill Rodriguez, I'll be darned! I have one too but it's a spruce. Very good guitar and I got it for a great price, super happy with it. It'll continue to be my only non-romantic guitar.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:43 pm

Chariot0 wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:34 pm
Here is my rendition of #6. I know I played a wrong note and there are some bumps and bruises. I failed at recording it earlier this week so decided to just go with whatever I got today. I want to move on but I might come back to this one because I don't feel like I recorded my best playing.

https://soundcloud.com/roger-ramirez-24/sor-op-60-nr-6
Very well, Roger, the tempo is ok, the tone is nice and I just have a couple of comments regarding the slurs in the piece. In my Chanterelle edition of these studies, the slurs in m9 and m12, section 2, are mandatory, the one in m10 seems to be optional (traced line) and m11 has no slur indicated. However, in your rendition you seem you have slurs in all these measures. Is that so? I know these are embellishments, may be put there by the editor, but still... Finally, there is the slur in measure 31 which I cannot ear at all. Is it there? To the #7, now, quite a challenging one, it took me ages to "tame" it... :D

With this new rendition, Roger, the table of posted records is now:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 18Feb18.png
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:34 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:14 pm
Further ahead, I've listened already to the #22 and it is also out of this world (lots of slurs, though, David :)).
Well this is curious. I see the slurs in the original, yet for some reason the David Grimes edition has NO slurs indicated for #22. I will have to write them in.
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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:12 am

Ah-ha! Hee-hee! I cry with glee!!
Sor 60 20 4.png

Based on the unpleasant awareness that #22 is not properly marked for slurring in my Grimes edition, I decided to take a lookie-see at #20 as well. And -- magic happens!! It turns out that in m4 of Sor 60/20, there is NOT a slur indicated for b-a#. The Grimes edition shows one there, as does the Noad edition. And THAT one slur, gentlemen, was my nightmare. The required angle of holding the f# with 3 and the d with 2, then slurring 4/2 on b/a#, was at **precisely** a hand position that it was quite painful for my pinky to manage. The proximal knuckle joint simply locks up for me, and no way around it. Quite possibly a micro bone spur from a childhood bicycle injury, but nothing warranting treatment or repair, save for not being able to play a few slurred passages.

Now that I can see that I can legitimately play this on open B /fretted A# /open B ------ this Lesson just got a whole lot easier.

Which doesn't mean that Lessons 21 - 25 suddenly became leisurely walks in Liberty Park......
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Chariot0
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Chariot0 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:09 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:43 pm

Very well, Roger, the tempo is ok, the tone is nice and I just have a couple of comments regarding the slurs in the piece. In my Chanterelle edition of these studies, the slurs in m9 and m12, section 2, are mandatory, the one in m10 seems to be optional (traced line) and m11 has no slur indicated. However, in your rendition you seem you have slurs in all these measures. Is that so?
I found it odd that there is a pattern that repeats 4 times and only 2 or optionally 3 of those are slurred, so I've decided to slur all 4 of them.
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:43 pm
Finally, there is the slur in measure 31 which I cannot ear at all. Is it there?
Ugh you are right! For the long time I thought it was just a tied note. It wasn't until recently that I noticed it was a slur and I tried it once and meant to put it in but completely forgot when I recorded it. I may come back to this one at some point because I wasn't crazy about my playing but I would like to move on from it.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:49 am

David Norton wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:12 am
Ah-ha! Hee-hee! I cry with glee!!

Sor 60 20 4.png


Based on the unpleasant awareness that #22 is not properly marked for slurring in my Grimes edition, I decided to take a lookie-see at #20 as well. And -- magic happens!! It turns out that in m4 of Sor 60/20, there is NOT a slur indicated for b-a#. The Grimes edition shows one there, as does the Noad edition. And THAT one slur, gentlemen, was my nightmare. The required angle of holding the f# with 3 and the d with 2, then slurring 4/2 on b/a#, was at **precisely** a hand position that it was quite painful for my pinky to manage. The proximal knuckle joint simply locks up for me, and no way around it. Quite possibly a micro bone spur from a childhood bicycle injury, but nothing warranting treatment or repair, save for not being able to play a few slurred passages.

Now that I can see that I can legitimately play this on open B /fretted A# /open B ------ this Lesson just got a whole lot easier.

Which doesn't mean that Lessons 21 - 25 suddenly became leisurely walks in Liberty Park......
Lucky me, in the Chanterelle edition there is no such slur... :D
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:19 pm

Chariot0 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:09 am
I may come back to this one at some point because I wasn't crazy about my playing but I would like to move on from it.
I know this feeling all too well. I chose last night to go back and listen to my earlier videos of the first few Lessons. UGH. :oops: I'm not sure how much is "genuine" fret/string/nail noise, and how much of it is because I don't do any editing or "smoothing" of the sound file to reduce the inevitable peaks and increase the commensurate valleys which occur in the pattern. But really, after spending a few days on any given Lesson, I am generally not so interested in continuing to polish and polish and polish it to flawlessness. I too like to "move on from it".

Sadly, this is probably quite at odds with the overall purpose of this project....
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Alexander Kalil
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Alexander Kalil » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:43 pm

David Norton wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:12 am
Now that I can see that I can legitimately play this on open B /fretted A# /open B ------ this Lesson just got a whole lot easier.
Just make sure the open B and fretted A# don't overlap.. :-)

tsulej

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by tsulej » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:43 pm

Hi all! After lurking here for some time I decided to join. It's not possible to read whole thread (around 1000 posts, huh) so I hope it's not too late to join. I'm after 3 months of almost daily practice (after 25 years of break playing guitar). I feel quite comfortable with around 10 pieces from Op. 60. So I started to recording them. It's my first guitar recording, session took around 15 minutes and it's second fully played piece. I feel that I can't do this better, it lacks some dynamics which I hear in my head but can't here on the record. Also some notes should be damped. Maybe I repeat recording in following months after more practicing.

https://soundcloud.com/tsulej/sor-op-60-no-1

More pieces soon.

Recorded with Zoom H1. Postprocessing: compression + reverb.

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:27 pm

Tsulej, welcome to the Op. 60 Club!!
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:57 pm

Having now heard your 60/1 on my home computer, your playing is quite good. The reverb seems excessive, any sort of note dampening you may do will be overwhelmed by the reverb level.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:18 am

David Norton wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:19 pm
Chariot0 wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:09 am
I may come back to this one at some point because I wasn't crazy about my playing but I would like to move on from it.
I know this feeling all too well. I chose last night to go back and listen to my earlier videos of the first few Lessons. UGH. :oops: I'm not sure how much is "genuine" fret/string/nail noise, and how much of it is because I don't do any editing or "smoothing" of the sound file to reduce the inevitable peaks and increase the commensurate valleys which occur in the pattern. But really, after spending a few days on any given Lesson, I am generally not so interested in continuing to polish and polish and polish it to flawlessness. I too like to "move on from it".

Sadly, this is probably quite at odds with the overall purpose of this project....
My first renditions were also very, very poor, David, and they are not that much better now... :D. But I persevere, play them every day, and they are getting better all the time.

As for an "overall purpose of this project", well, each one of us will have different expectations when joining this Project and I can only speak for myself, but my idea when starting this thread, with the full support of our good friend Yisrael van Handel, was simply to set ourselves (and myself in particular) a goal that would force us to improve our playing and score reading skills in a systematic way, counting for that on the generosity of teachers and other more advanced players in the Forum to help us all in this objective. In that sense, I feel that the Project was a good idea, a measure of its success being the number of posts, records and views it has attracted so far.

Now, once a particular piece has been studied to the point of one being able to post a reasonable record of it, so that others can listen and provide constructive comments and advice, it is then up to each one of us to further improve it, or not. But main goal, to learn how to play the piece with a minimum skill will have been achieved :D.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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