How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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eno
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by eno » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:56 pm

Good questions, Andrey, but this is a bit different topic. To me the music of the composers I mentioned (Brouwer, Yoshimatsu, Paciezsny) is very spiritual in essence. But I agree that it is not easily accessible for folks without some background in modern classical music. And yes, for people without that background modern music may sound technical and abstract. There are still some modern composers writing more accessible classical music (Arvo Part for example). I think in the 20 century after the development of various styles and genres the music and its auditory became split according to specific subcultures and tastes, and many genres developed and specialized to the extent that they became less accessible for the listeners outside the target group. For example, modern jazz is also hardly accessible for non-jazz listeners, same for rock (don't most women hate rock? :) ) Essentially, different musical styles are different musical languages. The Tower of Babel is a good analogy here: musical language, once fairly common at least in Europe, has split into a variety of different languages, and people from one audience group do not understand the musical language of another group anymore unless they spend some time and effort to learn a new musical language. That's the reality of modern culture, whether we like it or not is another question. I personally don't see it as a problem, it's just the way it is, but maybe you or other people do see it as a problem, and I understand that.
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by amade » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:05 pm

Julian Bream referred to the "guitar ghetto," an insular state of mind that made the guitar world distinct from the musical world at large. He (and John Williams) rejected the ghetto and played with the mastery of great individual artists that absorbed (not merely copied) the musical principles one hears in the playing of brilliant pianists, violinists, and orchestras. Can one really train a student to be such an artist? I'm skeptical. One can impart solid musical values, train students to assess musical sources, understand phrasing and styles, cultivate tone, and encourage individuality. But artistry will always be rare. It's a result of unusual talent, commitment and intelligence. As for expressing the self, is that really the purpose in performing the music of fine composers? Don't the best performers express what they perceive to be inherent in the score rather than the self? Of course one's musical personality will inform a performance. But shouldn't it enhance what the composer created and expected from the conventions of performance practice at the time?
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by MartinCogg » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:53 am

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:55 pm
eno wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:27 am
I think one of the ways that classical music differs from etc. etc.
Thanks for this explanation. etc. etc.

Performers play new and different pieces
Andrei - ^ a much clipped quote to save space, with critical passage underlined -

just this evening, browsing on the big river I was listening to sample tracks of this and that and bumped
into a cd from the 'Mobius Trio' (mobius guitar trio)... look them up on the youtube - I think they are doing
what quite a few young musicians (with the classical education/training) do nowadays - form their own
ensembles, and commission new works to perform.
(I saw some links on googlesearch but didn't listen yet meself)

Wouldn't this suggest that it's not really such a completely narrow constrained classical guitar world?

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by eno » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:28 am

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:03 pm
Is music which you offered as examples are really containing the same message as a classical one?
Does it really talking to person about happiness of love? About sadness of farewell? Friendship? whatever...
Its language seems do not correspond with general human psyche anymore..
... and in reality endlessly reproduce itself and naturally becoming more and more "technical " rather than "spiritual" in its essence?
Andrey, if you think that this music is not spiritual and not about sadness and happiness, but it's technical, abstract and repetitive, then I have no means to convince you otherwise. To me it sounds deeply spiritual, emotional and breathtaking beautiful
[media]https://youtu.be/JdjlEpsLQrQ[/media]
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by JRomano » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:21 am

This is a fascinating discussion and I suppose something that has been and will continue to be discussed forever. To me, the importance of replication is as a way of developing the technical mastery needed to make art. But, eventually that should take a back seat to the creation of art. When I was learning jazz guitar, which is another whole world, my guitar teacher used to tell me that there were four stages of learning. Most people never make it to the last part. He said it started with incompetent incompetence....and that is to say you don't know what you don't know. There's much you can't conceive because you have no experience, but as you learn you become a competent incompetent, which he said meant you know what you don't know or need to learn. The next stage is competent competence. You know what you know and you can do it well. The final stage, which he reserved for the geniuses, is incompetent competence....you don't know all that you know but you have a fluency and it comes up, perhaps unexpectedly or unintentionally, in the creation of art. So, to me, that's why the learning and practice and replication, at first, is important. It's what we do after we can do that, which is most important. Anyway, a very interesting discussion.

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by JRomano » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:24 am

Just a quick addendum to my last post: I think that in any art it's that fluency that we seek. It's so difficult to attain, but it can be transformative.

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:24 pm

eno wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:28 am
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:03 pm
Is music which you offered as examples are really containing the same message as a classical one?
Does it really talking to person about happiness of love? About sadness of farewell? Friendship? whatever...
Its language seems do not correspond with general human psyche anymore..
... and in reality endlessly reproduce itself and naturally becoming more and more "technical " rather than "spiritual" in its essence?
Andrey, if you think that this music is not spiritual and not about sadness and happiness, but it's technical, abstract and repetitive, then I have no means to convince you otherwise. To me it sounds deeply spiritual, emotional and breathtaking beautiful
[media]https://youtu.be/JdjlEpsLQrQ[/media]
Arvo Part is really out of line "recognized" modern composers...he seems to be closer to Renaissance rather than to Modernism in the essence of what hi does...
And my questions or quest here about general attitude, not about particular "modern" or classical guitar composers...
Yes, some, few, particular composers Art accepted by Academia and press and it is fine, while general attitude in guitar world is still the same - in general creativity rejected, new technological and therefore creative and artistic possibilities coming to the musician of 21 st century - rejected... and absolute majority of guitarists concentrated purely on copying and repetition...which is nice activity too if one play nice music and enjoy it, and nothing wrong in it by itself, but it is also a thing which drags classical guitar world in a very small... exclusive corner...
Guitar in the past seems to was in general a kind of the folk Art which was included in the whole world of Music. Folk in a sense that it creativity was coming straight from the people who played it... nowadays it is strictly separated - composers must compose and performers must perform and all other folks who dare to create their own music generally rejected (unless they recognized by Academia and press). But this attitude and this status quo are making classical guitar to lose its popularity lot more than advance of Pop-music and other genres... one of the things which is so attractive in Pop-music (I am not a fun of Pop-music in any way) is possibility for anyone to be a creator, possibility for anyone to talk in his own voice about what he wants...and attitude is such that this normal and essential part of it. Imagine a kind of pop-music festival - probably most or all artists there will sing their songs isnt it? and classical guitar festivals? Who will play their own music? Just 1-2 recognized by Academia...who else?
In general all these festivals are strictly business enterprises which govern by principle of making profit, but even in informal gatherings the same thing will happen... majority of classical guitarists are afraid to compose and perfrom their own music because attitude is such that they will be rejected.
And not everyone can withstand rejection... actually only a few could...

Therefore we need to think more - How to change global attitude in our Art?
from copying and "covering" as an ultimate purpose - to self-expression, creation of original music as a purpose of our music journey?
Happy New Year Friends!!! :)
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by sxedio » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:43 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:24 pm
Guitar in the past seems to was in general a kind of the folk Art which was included in the whole world of Music. Folk in a sense that it creativity was coming straight from the people who played it... nowadays it is strictly separated - composers must compose and performers must perform and all other folks who dare to create their own music generally rejected (unless they recognized by Academia and press). But this attitude and this status quo are making classical guitar to lose its popularity lot more than advance of Pop-music and other genres... one of the things which is so attractive in Pop-music (I am not a fun of Pop-music in any way) is possibility for anyone to be a creator, possibility for anyone to talk in his own voice about what he wants...and attitude is such that this normal and essential part of it. Imagine a kind of pop-music festival - probably most or all artists there will sing their songs isnt it? and classical guitar festivals? Who will play their own music? Just 1-2 recognized by Academia...who else?
Actually Andrei, pop underwent a shift with the Beatles, before that it was very much professional songwriters and professional performers, after it it was all about groups singing their own material. And still the more commercial poppy end of pop works with singers vs producers, and in the US, country music also works this way, professional songwriters and professional performers. So even at the pop level, there are audiences going for what they think is the personal expression of the singer/performer, and other audiences going for 'professionally crafted' and 'professionally performed' material.

As for the more general topic, I think the guitar has a bit of a leftover syndrome from when it wasn't taken seriously as a classical instrument. Some guitarists are trying to be 'more classical than the classical' violinists, pianists etc. by playing Bach, Scarlatti, Paganini violin caprices, spanish nationalist piano music etc. Others are embracing the popular and electronic sides of the instrument and do more experimental classical work than your typical violinist or pianist, see e.g. Christelle Séry on youtube.
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by ben etow » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:05 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
I see fundamental problem in general approach to guitar activities and guitar education, as well as in other instruments education in field of Music.
Copying and repetition is certainly organic and important part of it, but should it be the main purpose of it...as it basically perceived now?
Myself I see ART of Music as more similar to Art of Painting rather than only to Art of performance.
Our world is changing fast and drastically, and because of technological revolution we have such possibilities of self-expression and creativity which never existed before! Yet classical guitar culture seems still mainly evolving around repetition, copying and performance of small, limited number of (nice) pieces...and not around Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts...
So , how to change the whole global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?
Well, we all know Roland Dyens, Dusan Bogdanovic, Ben Verdery, Marek Pasieczny, Sergio Assad, Leo Brouwer, Boris Gaquere... I think classical guitar world is by far the most vivid within (or actually outside) the classical music world, with its so many complete players/composers/arrangers...

There may more of them and I even enjoy myself composing or arranging at times. General education and even art education tends to favour reproduction, at least before pushing to creativity.
I never learnt composing or arranging. So what? I don't think it is something you need to learn from school/conservatory and if you do so, you may end up copying old masters or the last wave of succesfull composers...

And yes, virtually everything has already been done :(
Last edited by ben etow on Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:27 pm

ben etow wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:05 pm
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
I see fundamental problem in general approach to guitar activities and guitar education, as well as in other instruments education in field of Music.
Copying and repetition is certainly organic and important part of it, but should it be the main purpose of it...as it basically perceived now?
Myself I see ART of Music as more similar to Art of Painting rather than only to Art of performance.
Our world is changing fast and drastically, and because of technological revolution we have such possibilities of self-expression and creativity which never existed before! Yet classical guitar culture seems still mainly evolving around repetition, copying and performance of small, limited number of (nice) pieces...and not around Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts...
So , how to change the whole global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?
Well, we all know Roland Dyens, Dusan Bogdanovic, Ben Verdery, Marek Pasieczny, Sergio Assad, Leo Brouwer, Boris Gaquere... I think classical guitar world is by far the most vivid within (or actually outside) the classical music world, with its so many complete players/composers/arrangers...

There many more of them and I even enjoy myself composing or arranging at times. General education and even art education tends to favour reproduction, at least before pushing to creativity.
I never learnt composing or arranging. So what? I don't think it is something you need to learn from school/conservatory and if you do so, you may end up copying old masters or the last wave of succesfull composers...

And yes, virtually everything has already been done :(
well...while all these people are very nice and it is pleasure for them and listeners that they playing guitar ...- wasn't in this forum - hundreds complaints that concerts of classical guitar became a dull repetition of small list of the pieces?
and if everything created before - when who created Marek Pasieczny music (for example) before?
could you please give me the names?
is his music bear any correlation with... renaissance music (for example)?
indian music?
chinese?
on this forum many insists that music is almost equal to math...(I do not completely agree even there is some appearance of it in some aspects), but..
is Math so limited that every kind of calculation, equation were created before?
and if not... why Music equations are so limited that they all (seems) done them before?
do we really think that , let say Mozart already done Marek Pasieczny music?
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by ddray » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:19 am

...
Last edited by ddray on Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by gingko » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:58 am

I read this thread by chance and thought I'd just pass it by. But I had to come back. I have a simple reaction and observation.

Why is art (or Art) limited to creativity? Isn't art also communication/empathy? How creative is the human heart? And really how creative are we when expressing ourselves?

I'm not interested in a debate because everyone has a good point here. Just want to add another perspective.

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:28 pm

gingko wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:58 am
I read this thread by chance and thought I'd just pass it by. But I had to come back. I have a simple reaction and observation.

Why is art (or Art) limited to creativity? Isn't art also communication/empathy? How creative is the human heart? And really how creative are we when expressing ourselves?

I'm not interested in a debate because everyone has a good point here. Just want to add another perspective.
Well.. who limits it?
definitely not me... :)

but.. just wondering - it is a lot of communication/empathy in sport.
Fans going crazy about their teams etc.
Is Sport an Art too?
but essence of sport is competition and dominance...
is essence of Art competition and dominance?
and if not... then why most important thing in a guitar world are competitions?
why winners of competitions considered the "true and best artists"?
and artist who do not part in competitions considered as one whose art has not much "value"?
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by gingko » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:13 pm

Andrei,

I agree with part of what you say. I can see the point of your original post about music education needing to put more emphasis on creativity. I think you could also say "composition" here, with greater experiment with sound? And you would like to see more performers engaged in composition and experimentation. Is that correct?

Those points are fine. But I think that interpretation in performance IS communication and also creative and self-expressing. Why not? The word "copying" is negative and indeed, there are performers who do simply copy other performances. However, you're not equating "copying" to "interpreting," are you?

Playing pieces composed by others, interpreting them beautifully, and communicating emotion or mind to an audience is art/Art. I would also call it self-expression too: the composer, the performer are in partnership to create art.

The sports comparison I don't understand. Arts involves communication. Sports involves communication. Therefore sports is art?? That doesn't follow logic. If we're discussing competition in the arts world that's another topic. (I can say with some assurance that in the commercial arts and design world, the ones who can copy the fastest are the most competitive in their fields.)

I'm an intermediate music student who wandered into a discussion among mostly accomplished musicians. Just want to say that to me, being able to express emotion in a piece is a very high accomplishment. (My ability to compose is rudimentary at best! I can make up funny songs sometimes at the moment:) I know you are talking about higher levels.

Appreciate your thoughtful posts, Andrei, and the discussion that they bring forth on the forum.

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:41 pm

gingko wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:13 pm
Andrei,

I agree with part of what you say. I can see the point of your original post about music education needing to put more emphasis on creativity. I think you could also say "composition" here, with greater experiment with sound? And you would like to see more performers engaged in composition and experiment. Is that correct?

Those points are fine. But I think that interpretation in performance IS communication and also creative and self-expressing. Why not? The word "copying" is negative. There are performers who do simply copy other performances.

However, in my opinion, playing pieces composed by others and interpreting them beautifully and communicating that to an audience is art. I would also call it self-expression too: the composer, the performer are in partnership to create art.

The sports comparison I don't understand. Arts involves communication. Sports involves communication. Therefore sports is art?? That doesn't follow logic. If we're discussing competition that's another topic.

I'm an intermediate music student so to me being able to express emotion in a piece is a very high accomplishment. My ability to compose is rudimentary at best! (I can make up funny songs sometimes at the moment) I know you are talking about higher levels.

Appreciate your thoughtful posts, Andrei.
Yes, absolutely, I agree - there different ways to express one's creativity and creative interpretation is one of them.

But... "global" classical guitar attitude is such that only a few, academically recognized authors have "RIGHT" to compose (create) something new and all other folks should only interpret their creation and do not dare to try their own... this idea implanted in our psyche in the process of music education and then reproduced again and again...thus this idea is dominant now... and it is idea with which I totally disagree!
That is why I am asking original question... not because I want to devalue interpretation etc.
For me education is something which should teach me how to read and write.
But not in a way there I will only read something and then learn it by heart and then write it publicly myself it in a beautiful manner... (even it could be a fun to do)

No I read (music) simply because I enjoy it and not because I want to ( learn it by heart and then write it publicly )
and if I write something - I want to write my own words!

This attitude and creativity which aim to make your own stuff is standard in many arts (like painting) but not in classical guitar and academic music in general...

Why can't we recognize that this part of what we do or can do should have equal value if not more with global attitude which exist now?
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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