How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
gingko
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by gingko » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:02 am

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:41 pm

Yes, absolutely, I agree - there different ways to express one's creativity and creative interpretation is one of them.

But... "global" classical guitar attitude is such that only a few, academically recognized authors have "RIGHT" to compose (create) something new and all other folks should only interpret their creation and do not dare to try their own... this idea implanted in our psyche in the process of music education and then reproduced again and again...thus this idea is dominant now... and it is idea with which I totally disagree!
That is why I am asking original question... not because I want to devalue interpretation etc.
For me education is something which should teach me how to read and write.
But not in a way there I will only read something and then learn it by heart and then write it publicly myself it in a beautiful manner... (even it could be a fun to do)

No I read (music) simply because I enjoy it and not because I want to ( learn it by heart and then write it publicly )
and if I write something - I want to write my own words!

This attitude and creativity which aim to make your own stuff is standard in many arts (like painting) but not in classical guitar and academic music in general...

Why can't we recognize that this part of what we do or can do should have equal value if not more with global attitude which exist now?
Thanks for the further explanation. I come from a classical piano background. Literature for piano is so vast, I think there is less attempt to protect it. A great deal of "new" music, however, is written for teaching material.

An educational thread for me. Thanks, very interesting!

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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:53 pm

amade wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:05 pm
But artistry will always be rare. It's a result of unusual talent, commitment and intelligence. As for expressing the self, is that really the purpose in performing the music of fine composers? Don't the best performers express what they perceive to be inherent in the score rather than the self? Of course one's musical personality will inform a performance. But shouldn't it enhance what the composer created and expected from the conventions of performance practice at the time?
Good points! I agree that an artist is supposed to express higher meanings than just expressing the self. There are rare exceptionally talented musicians and composers who need very little training to achieve what other musicians/composers might achieve in years and years of studies and practice. But at the same time creativity is still not very much appreciated in the academic system or school. The same applies to all the other subjects, not just art. At the same time creativity cannot be taught really. One must have a good understanding of what already exists before being able to create something new...

All said, sometimes one might read a line in a book, watch a movie scene or listen to a piece of music and feel that that book, movie or music expressed him/her even better than s/he could ever express him/herself (hopefully I'm making some sense). So I think copying (not as an ultimate goal) can also be a medium to self-expression. Academically, copying can teach you a lot of things! Until one reaches a point where s/he doesn't need to copy anymore...
To send light into the darkness of men's heart, such is the duty of the artist. (Robert Schumann)

ben etow
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by ben etow » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:13 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:27 pm
ben etow wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:05 pm
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
I see fundamental problem in general approach to guitar activities and guitar education, as well as in other instruments education in field of Music.
Well, we all know Roland Dyens, Dusan Bogdanovic, Ben Verdery, Marek Pasieczny, Sergio Assad, Leo Brouwer, Boris Gaquere... I think classical guitar world is by far the most vivid within (or actually outside) the classical music world, with its so many complete players/composers/arrangers...

There many more of them and I even enjoy myself composing or arranging at times. General education and even art education tends to favour reproduction, at least before pushing to creativity.
I never learnt composing or arranging. So what? I don't think it is something you need to learn from school/conservatory and if you do so, you may end up copying old masters or the last wave of succesfull composers...

And yes, virtually everything has already been done :(
well...while all these people are very nice and it is pleasure for them and listeners that they playing guitar ...- wasn't in this forum - hundreds complaints that concerts of classical guitar became a dull repetition of small list of the pieces?
and if everything created before - when who created Marek Pasieczny music (for example) before?
could you please give me the names?
is his music bear any correlation with... renaissance music (for example)?
indian music?
chinese?
Well, I am not this form, I am just part of it... The ones who complaint have to go and see players who play interesting and/or new and/or creative music...

Please read carefully... Virtually everything is not everything. And yes Marek is special indeed. I enjoy his music very much but even him gets some of his inspiration from the composers to whom he writes homages for instance. To me it is an illusion to think one can create without any knowledge/partial copy/inspiration of old masters...

But come on, the whole Western, Eastern music, music history is so vast... We can't even know everything. I can't be sure I'll create something really new when I'm composing. That doesn't mean it won"t be interesting or even distinctive (maybe it isn't the right word), but completely new?

CliffK
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by CliffK » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:12 am

Eno,
Thank you for posting the very moving arrangement and performance of Arvo Part’s composition. Spiritual, powerful, and beautiful.
Michael Thames 2010 It Spruce/BR
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Marshall Dixon
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by Marshall Dixon » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:53 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
I see fundamental problem in general approach to guitar activities and guitar education, as well as in other instruments education in field of Music.
Copying and repetition is certainly organic and important part of it, but should it be the main purpose of it...as it basically perceived now?
Myself I see ART of Music as more similar to Art of Painting rather than only to Art of performance.
Our world is changing fast and drastically, and because of technological revolution we have such possibilities of self-expression and creativity which never existed before! Yet classical guitar culture seems still mainly evolving around repetition, copying and performance of small, limited number of (nice) pieces...and not around Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts...
So , how to change the whole global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?
Hello Andrei,

Apropos of the question you raise, these passages in my latest readings stood out regarding the arts:

"In the early ages of the world, as in the early period of life, there was the freshness of a morning existence, when the gloss of novelty was on everything that met the eye; when the senses, not blunted by familiarity, were more keenly alive to the beautiful, and the mind, under the influence of a healthy and natural taste, was not perverted by philosophical theory... The wing of genius was not bound to earth by cold and conventional rules of criticism...

"... As other nations come upon the stage, and new forms of civilization arise, the monuments of art and imagination, productions of an older time, will lie as an obstacle in the path of improvement. They cannot be built upon; they occupy the ground which the new aspirant for immortality would cover. The whole work is to be gone over again, and other forms of beauty - whether higher or lower in the scale of merit, but unlike the past - must arise to take a place by their side..."

William H. Prescott, History of the Conquest of Peru, Book II chapter 1.


I think that the art of musical interpretation is seperate from the visual arts of painting, sculpture or musical composition. A painting is not meant to be reproduced, whereas that is the only reason for a musical score.

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prawnheed
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by prawnheed » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:02 am

Marshall Dixon wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:53 pm
.. A painting is not meant to be reproduced, ...
Trying telling that to the millions of tourists wandering the streets of Amsterdam with their triangular prism shaped boxes full of van Gogh prints.

Marshall Dixon
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by Marshall Dixon » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:19 am

prawnheed wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:02 am
Marshall Dixon wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:53 pm
.. A painting is not meant to be reproduced, ...
Trying telling that to the millions of tourists wandering the streets of Amsterdam with their triangular prism shaped boxes full of van Gogh prints.
If I could do that then I might be able to change the global attitude of art! I would still prefer to have the original. Especially the selfie with the missing ear.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:37 am

Marshall Dixon wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:53 pm
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
I see fundamental problem in general approach to guitar activities and guitar education, as well as in other instruments education in field of Music.
Copying and repetition is certainly organic and important part of it, but should it be the main purpose of it...as it basically perceived now?
Myself I see ART of Music as more similar to Art of Painting rather than only to Art of performance.
Our world is changing fast and drastically, and because of technological revolution we have such possibilities of self-expression and creativity which never existed before! Yet classical guitar culture seems still mainly evolving around repetition, copying and performance of small, limited number of (nice) pieces...and not around Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts...
So , how to change the whole global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?
Hello Andrei,

Apropos of the question you raise, these passages in my latest readings stood out regarding the arts:

"In the early ages of the world, as in the early period of life, there was the freshness of a morning existence, when the gloss of novelty was on everything that met the eye; when the senses, not blunted by familiarity, were more keenly alive to the beautiful, and the mind, under the influence of a healthy and natural taste, was not perverted by philosophical theory... The wing of genius was not bound to earth by cold and conventional rules of criticism...

"... As other nations come upon the stage, and new forms of civilization arise, the monuments of art and imagination, productions of an older time, will lie as an obstacle in the path of improvement. They cannot be built upon; they occupy the ground which the new aspirant for immortality would cover. The whole work is to be gone over again, and other forms of beauty - whether higher or lower in the scale of merit, but unlike the past - must arise to take a place by their side..."

William H. Prescott, History of the Conquest of Peru, Book II chapter 1.


I think that the art of musical interpretation is seperate from the visual arts of painting, sculpture or musical composition. A painting is not meant to be reproduced, whereas that is the only reason for a musical score.
sure it is separate.
And the thing is - "art of musical interpretation" totally dominate "classical guitar" (and general "classical") music world
But can't we be free? do our own? compose, improvise all the time and this idea will be accepted by majority as equal to "normal" interpretation?
Why do we need all kind of strict rules and frames and regulations instead of freedom?
Why do we want to reject and despise others who follow different path?
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

zzzsegundaepoca

Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by zzzsegundaepoca » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:12 am

There’s a difference between art and craft. There is a craft to most art forms. In order to develop that craft, one must copy existing art. Interpreting the music of others can be seen to be an art in and of itself. However there is certainly more obvious creativity to an excellent improvisation, or an original composition. Many of us are content to be craftspeople, only rarely truly crossing over into art. Roland Dyens, for instance, was a true artist, but he was also an extremely competent craftsman.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:10 pm

zzzsegundaepoca wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:12 am
There’s a difference between art and craft. There is a craft to most art forms. In order to develop that craft, one must copy existing art. Interpreting the music of others can be seen to be an art in and of itself. However there is certainly more obvious creativity to an excellent improvisation, or an original composition. Many of us are content to be craftspeople, only rarely truly crossing over into art. Roland Dyens, for instance, was a true artist, but he was also an extremely competent craftsman.
Yes, It is necessary to any artist to master craft.
It is necessary to learn not just technique and tools of trade, but also to know all kind of different styles, periods and types of music and not only European, but music from all world.
But, doesn't standard education not just teach us craft, but also certain mindset and frameworks?
And isn't it in this mindset and frameworks - creativity and self -expression not the purpose, but the last thing...?
Isn't it that together with craft people learn how to fear their own creativity and how to reject creativity of others around?
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

zzzsegundaepoca

Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by zzzsegundaepoca » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:57 pm

I don’t believe that art or creativity can be taught. These have always flourished slightly apart from the establishment, or completely apart from the establishment. It is in spite of education as much as because of that creative people create. Also I firmly believe that creativity needs boundaries that can either be pushed or ignored or even worked within. It would be a mistake to unfetter creative people entirely.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:47 pm

zzzsegundaepoca wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:57 pm
I don’t believe that art or creativity can be taught. These have always flourished slightly apart from the establishment, or completely apart from the establishment. It is in spite of education as much as because of that creative people create. Also I firmly believe that creativity needs boundaries that can either be pushed or ignored or even worked within. It would be a mistake to unfetter creative people entirely.
Sure, I agree! It is unlikely that you could teach someone to became Bach or Van Gogh...
Sure, nowadays much of creativity comes "in spite of education " (standard education in music field) and not because of it.
but,
- in the past in different kind of periods and styles of music - freedom and creativity was widely accepted and expected from artists!!!
almost every musician was also a composer, improviser etc.
nowadays it is a rarity left to "recognized by academia" and different genres of music, so called "non-classical genres"
like jazz, rock, pop etc.
most popular artists nowadays are "singer-songwriters" not only singers, or performers...
many "classical" musicians and teachers dismiss this fact and attribute it to "dumbness" of audience .. they explained it in a way that general audience is not musically smart and educated to be able to understand "music of accepted "modern" composers which use all kind of modern composition styles and techniques...
while it is by itself a subject for different discussion - there is a FACT THAT modern "classical" musicians are usually not composers, improvisers etc. And audience feel it too...
But why couldn't we do more original pieces?
Why do we afraid not just put piano and forte and different techniques etc. into classical pieces, but also to change them in a new original way?
where are classical guitar performers and musicians who do this?
very few...probably less than 1%...
and all festivals filled with lines of performers who follow "standard" way...
isn't it really that only less than 1% of people are creative ?to degree of producing their own stuff?
why was it completely different in the past?
why?
-
because of power of modern academia and education.
because of years of implanting certain frameworks and rules, because of presenting history and certain modern mindset.
and yes - rules and frameworks could be relevant and important, until they start to totally dominate certain field.
in this case most of possible freedom is blocked. No freedom anymore. just rules and fear.
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by simonm » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:43 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:47 pm


why?
-
because of power of modern academia and education.
because of years of implanting certain frameworks and rules, because of presenting history and certain modern mindset.
and yes - rules and frameworks could be relevant and important, until they start to totally dominate certain field.
in this case most of possible freedom is blocked. No freedom anymore. just rules and fear.
Marketing … even more powerful.

Modern "lifestyle marketing" requires that in order to be "cool/fashionalbe/in-group" you buy (dead) "Artist X" limited edition (only 10,000) museum print for only $3,950 (or $11,250 for 5) instead of an original work of art by a living artist with 20-40 years track record for $1250.

If you buy the print your are a member of the in-group. If your buy the original art for $1250 you are a nobody (in marketing terms) who believes in their own taste and not in the voice of the marketing guys.

A family member of a friend of mine buys "art" every few years: the person gets their home redecorated by professionals and the instructions are on the lines of get me X appropriate "works of art" (i.e that guests will recognize the names ). No clue, no knowledge, no personal taste, no interest but might spend $15,000+ on "art" (none of it originals every few years that ends up in the dumpster.

When did you hear a person whistle last? Everyone is wired into consuming music (muzak?) rather than creating their own.

zzzsegundaepoca

Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by zzzsegundaepoca » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:03 pm

If you really believe in what you’re doing, just do it! I went to see a piano recital about a year ago in which the young sololist, Charlie Albright, freely improvised for a portion of his performance. Roland Dyens frequently improvised. Andrew York composes. i’m just not sure that the state is as dire as you think it is. Also you can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you’re going to barrel ahead on your own path, you need to have the personal conviction to carry you through the lack of establishment acceptance. Just because you think your art is valuable does not mean anyone else will agree with you. The lack of people agreeing with you, does not necessarily negate your art, however.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:43 pm

zzzsegundaepoca wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:03 pm
If you really believe in what you’re doing, just do it! I went to see a piano recital about a year ago in which the young sololist, Charlie Albright, freely improvised for a portion of his performance. Roland Dyens frequently improvised. Andrew York composes. i’m just not sure that the state is as dire as you think it is. Also you can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you’re going to barrel ahead on your own path, you need to have the personal conviction to carry you through the lack of establishment acceptance. Just because you think your art is valuable does not mean anyone else will agree with you. The lack of people agreeing with you, does not necessarily negate your art, however.
Thanks!
I did. I do.
i composed and recorded thousands of pieces
and most of it published and thanks to my dear listeners! (appr 1 000 000 unique listeners on Spotify alone in last two years, according to Spotify data which is open to any musician who published music there ) - and they listen it a lot! They not just agree but use my music for their meditations, weddings, funerals etc.etc. and I received many many letters of appreciation, thanks etc. It is really nice and gratifying feeling to see that people been deeply touched by my work and art...
As far as performances, concerts, festivals?...
I made living all my life as a performer (except for few last years when I work only composing/recording), I played few festivals some nice concerts, but mainly thousands and thousands gigs like weddings, 5 star hotels etc.
Major classical stage was always closed to me as for everybody like me.
It is nice and naive illusion to expect that independent musician (like me for example) CAN take part in these events. :)
Doors are closed. The only way to get in is to play by the "standard" rules and to follow "standard" path.
If one would not do it - he will be rejected as I did.
Nowadays my performance life is basically over. That's fine - I was very lucky to be born in time when another way to reach audience and another media arised.
But...
I am not alone.
There young folks who are independent like me, and they all will receive same treatment as me because of the way "classical" guitar music life setup.
That is why I asked " How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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