Guitar Waking Up?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
mikey445
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by mikey445 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:24 am

I was part of a forum "pass-around" of a ToneRite sometime back and it made a pretty noticeable different on a Spruce/Cocobolo Huipe I have.

MarkInLA
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by MarkInLA » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:06 am

My belief is that over time all the vibrations from all the thousands of notes/pitches bombarding the soundboard from inside the box and from the bridge/saddle atop the soundboard agitate the wood's fibrous structure causing it to become that much more sensitive/responsive to these thousands of pitches, separately or simultaneously, while at the same time all the woods and glues are still drying out since being formed into a guitar by the builder; leave alone that all objects expand and contract depending on how cold or hot they are at any given time. All this activity I believe constantly influence any wooden instrument's particular tonal quality and character, both temporarily and permanently, and mostly for the better. I've noticed my Cordoba C10 across the few years I've owned her from new, make these changes. To be fair though, it all could just be power of suggestion. But I don't think so. I think it really occurs.

ronjazz
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by ronjazz » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:22 am

It definitely appears in spruce-top instruments, less in cedar, but who knows about laminates? In any event, the fibers do loosen up and vibrate more freely, and a warmth develops along with a noticeable increase in volume, but magically the character remains, unless you lose the highs, but that's pretty rare. I've "developed" at least 6 guitars from brand-new, most were purchased with a bright, edgy sound, as I thought the playing in would mellow them somewhat, and it did. Some guitars go back to sleep, and will take a few hours to open back up if left too long.
Lester Devoe Flamenco Negra
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rpavich
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rpavich » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:26 am

mikey445 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:24 am
I was part of a forum "pass-around" of a ToneRite sometime back and it made a pretty noticeable different on a Spruce/Cocobolo Huipe I have.
Maybe we should start a pass-around here :)

Alan Carruth
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by Alan Carruth » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:32 pm

The only test I've heard of that looked objectively at the Tone-Rite was published in the on-line 'Savart Journal'. They found that it made no difference, at least in that test. I would like to see that repeated, and done better.

rpavich
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rpavich » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:44 pm

Alan Carruth wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:32 pm
The only test I've heard of that looked objectively at the Tone-Rite was published in the on-line 'Savart Journal'. They found that it made no difference, at least in that test. I would like to see that repeated, and done better.
Well, for whatever it's worth, this is one of the tests I was referring to.


https://youtu.be/fDEh24mhQQQ

Rognvald
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by Rognvald » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:56 pm

Alan Carruth wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:32 pm
The only test I've heard of that looked objectively at the Tone-Rite was published in the on-line 'Savart Journal'. They found that it made no difference, at least in that test. I would like to see that repeated, and done better.
Hi, Alan,
I would be interested in this article. Perhaps, you could provide the link. I am, by nature, a skeptic but am not opposed to real, not Junk, Science. I once had a dear friend who felt helpless as his father was dying from limb atrophy/infection due to diabetes. In desperation, he spent thousands of dollars on magnets to place under his father's mattress that purportedly could cure anything from arthritis to cancer. After six months, his condition worsened and his father died. I never heard about the magnets again. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

soltirefa
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by soltirefa » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:01 pm

Alan Carruth wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:32 pm
The only test I've heard of that looked objectively at the Tone-Rite was published in the on-line 'Savart Journal'. They found that it made no difference, at least in that test. I would like to see that repeated, and done better.
I wonder if vibrations alone are the whole effect that wakes up a guitar. Maybe pressing down on the strings (fretting) has something to do with it, too. So pressing down on the strings>moving the bridge>flexing the top might do something over time.

chiral3
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by chiral3 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:58 pm

Here's straw man for the group. I can produce a simple tone, or compound combination of tones, for two groups. One group can't hear it but can see its spectrum analysis in real time. The other group can't see the spectral analysis but can hear it in real time. Both groups are asked how many tones there are. The first group unanimously says that there are two tones. The second group unanimously says that there are three tones. Both groups are correct.
物の哀れ

Alan Carruth
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by Alan Carruth » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:15 pm

Rognvald:
Try a search on 'Savart Journal'; that should get you there. They're not trying to keep it secret.

That was what I'd call a minimally interesting video. I know he put a lot of work into it, and I respect that, but the fact is that his controls were not nearly good enough to isolate anything interesting.

Hand strumming is just not accurate enough, for example: the best way to get a repeatable 'pluck' is the wire break method. Loop a piece of magnet wire, about #44, behind the string and pull it up until the wire breaks. This gives a force that's repeatable to within about 2%, and according one expert the signal from the string will be the same within 1dB. It would be nice to get closer than that, but so far that's the best I've heard of.

He makes a lot of the fact that the strings have been on for a week, If they were not played in that time that should not matter for this sort of test, I would think.

He saw changes in the high frequency region: the measurements I've done suggest that it's mostly the low end that changes. In normalizing to the noise floor at the low end he may have masked any such change. Do we know that the low-frequency noise was at the same level in both tests?

The problem with high frequency stuff is that any normal room will have a huge number of standing waves in that range, and, since the wave lengths are so short the amplitude will vary significantly over a few inches. He did control the mic and guitar positions fairly well, but if something in the room was changed, like a piece of furniture was moved even a little, it could alter the response enough to move peaks in the spectrum chart. That could have been enough to account for that 17Hz peak in the 'after' test: the wave length there is under an inch, so moving the guitar by a half inch could do it. That's one reason they use anechoic chambers for this sort of test, and clamp the guitar down.

It would have been more interesting, and useful, if he'd done the playing comparisons without telling us which was which, and had the viewers guess. Small objective changes can be swamped by bias: heck, even fairly large ones can!

It's not easy to do good science about this stuff, which is why so little gets done. The people who have the wherewithal are not interested, and those that are interested can't afford to do the tests.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rojarosguitar » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:14 am

Alan, you explained extensively what I was meaning...
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rpavich
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rpavich » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:21 am

Well, I purchased a Tonerite for guitar and left it on for 26 hours (I had a lesson and I have to practice every day so that's about the max time each time) and scientific method or not, there is most definitely a dramatic difference in sound. Not the "I THINK I MIGHT hear something" sort of difference...but a "whoa!.." sort of difference.

I have a spruce top Yamaha purchased 3 weeks ago and when I took my first lesson my teacher asked to play it...got 3 notes into it and said "wow..it's tight..did you just buy this?" and I said yes.

The sound, even with only 26 hours of vibration, is much more mellow and rounded...definitely not as "sharp" toned.

That's my input on it...no scientific method, just picking up the guitar one day later and playing it.

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eno
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by eno » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:56 pm

There was a thread recently on the same topic here
I also had similar experience with my guitars which I described here and here, so I believe it is very real.
Paulino Bernabe 'India' 2001
Takamine C136S 1976
Masaru Kohno No.6 1967
Mitsuru Tamura No.800 1972
Rokutaro Nakade 1967, 1962

Alan Carruth
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by Alan Carruth » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:51 pm

Whenever I'm doing an experiment, I think a lot about what I call 'Feynman's Dictum', which is :"You are the easiest person for you to fool". That's why it's so hard to do good science on instrument sound.

I wish the Tone-Rite experiment that was reported in the Savart Journal had been more extensive and better done, but the fact is that it's as close as we've come so far to a 'real' result. If you disagree with it, and want to make the disagreement stick, then you'll need to do better than anecdotal evidence, which is all you've got so far. You may be right, but the road to actually demonstrating that is arduous.

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eno
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by eno » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:22 pm

Alan Carruth wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:51 pm
That's why it's so hard to do good science on instrument sound.
Right, especially considering that an instrument sound is a transient phenomenon with spectrum changing over time so just analyzing the overall spectrum is not enough and can easily mis-represent the real picture.
Paulino Bernabe 'India' 2001
Takamine C136S 1976
Masaru Kohno No.6 1967
Mitsuru Tamura No.800 1972
Rokutaro Nakade 1967, 1962

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