Guitar Waking Up?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
rpavich
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rpavich » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:28 pm

Alan Carruth wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:51 pm
. If you disagree with it, and want to make the disagreement stick, then you'll need to do better than anecdotal evidence...
No you dont. There’s nothing wrong with anecdotal experience. Its not automatically invalid.

John Stone
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by John Stone » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:30 am

I had the same experience with my '77 Ramirez 1a, which I didn't play for years and then began playing again regularly. The difference between how it sounded for the first couple of days and then after a couple of weeks was remarkable.
2001 Manuel Velazquez
1977 Ramirez 1a
2014 Cordoba C10
They said, "You have a blue guitar, You do not play things as they are." The man replied, "Things as they are / Are changed upon the blue guitar."

Bill B
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by Bill B » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:29 am

rpavich wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:28 pm
Alan Carruth wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:51 pm
. If you disagree with it, and want to make the disagreement stick, then you'll need to do better than anecdotal evidence...
No you dont. There’s nothing wrong with anecdotal experience. Its not automatically invalid.
the trouble with anecdotal evidence is it comes up on both sides with similar regularity..... if you just want to enjoy the debate anecdotal evidence is fine. but if you want a real answer then, we will be wanting better evidence.
I enjoy this debate, by the way. But i like answers better.
2013 Angel Benito Aguado
2005 Ramirez R-2

rpavich
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rpavich » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:39 am

Bill B wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:29 am
rpavich wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:28 pm
Alan Carruth wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:51 pm
. If you disagree with it, and want to make the disagreement stick, then you'll need to do better than anecdotal evidence...
No you dont. There’s nothing wrong with anecdotal experience. Its not automatically invalid.
the trouble with anecdotal evidence is it comes up on both sides with similar regularity..... if you just want to enjoy the debate anecdotal evidence is fine. but if you want a real answer then, we will be wanting better evidence.
I enjoy this debate, by the way. But i like answers better.
I don't want an answer, I'm good with knowing that something happened to my guitar for the better. I don't actually care to prove it to someone who demands evidence that satisfies them. The scientific method isn't the be-all-end-all of every question, it has it's place and I accept that.

I realize that folks take their one data point and form opinions all of the time and that that's not the best way to determine cause/effect...I get that. At the same time, I've heard for 40 years how a low (keto) carb diet "doesn't work" and that "science has determined that it's dangerous", however, now doctors are prescribing it for diabetics because science has "caught up" with what folks have known since the 50's...that for whatever reason, it works; blood sugar is controlled, insulin response is controlled, body weight stabilizes, factors for heart disease stabilize for the better...etc.

So..a long winded way to say; I'm ok with not having to prove it to anyone or defend my statement that it definitely did do something pretty dramatic to my guitar. One day someone may take the time to set up a controlled experiment that everyone agrees on and then publishes results, but until then...we'll have something to talk about :)

Bill B
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by Bill B » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:52 am

it seems like a more magical world sometimes. I almost wish i believed i could hear half the things so many musicians claim to hear. I have thought i could hear many of them at various points, but sadly i cannot. amusingly neither can they when it comes down to it for most of the arguments I'm thinking of at the moment. There are lots of twists and variations on this theme (at least they all seem related to me). Ive got some fun anecdotes about musician friends of mine trying to prove that there was a huge difference in this or that, but i think I've probably told them all here the last go round so ill forgo this time unless you want to hear them.
2013 Angel Benito Aguado
2005 Ramirez R-2

rpavich
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rpavich » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:01 am

Bill B wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:52 am
it seems like a more magical world sometimes. I almost wish i believed i could hear half the things so many musicians claim to hear. I have thought i could hear many of them at various points, but sadly i cannot. amusingly neither can they when it comes down to it for most of the arguments I'm thinking of at the moment. There are lots of twists and variations on this theme (at least they all seem related to me). Ive got some fun anecdotes about musician friends of mine trying to prove that there was a huge difference in this or that, but i think I've probably told them all here the last go round so ill forgo this time unless you want to hear them.
Actually, I would. It's late, I'm not sleeping (for now) so yeah...let's get some light hearted stuff into this conversation. :)

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rojarosguitar » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:39 am

John Stone wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:30 am
I had the same experience with my '77 Ramirez 1a, which I didn't play for years and then began playing again regularly. The difference between how it sounded for the first couple of days and then after a couple of weeks was remarkable.
This is a perfectly valid experience that doesn't prove anything, unfortunately. An experience that I share with you. But the only conclusion I can come up to is that the integrated system of the player/room/guitar undergoes a kind of transformation that is perceived as 'improvement'. If a listener is involves as a third party, he is included in that integrated system and may or may not perceive the 'improvement' to.

Where this improvement actually lies nobody can tell and I'd rather suspect even science can't answer, because also science tends to separate or isolate something that to my understanding is not separable...


I don't really see a point to convince people that their experience is wrong or right, because an experience is to the the experiencer what it is: his or her unique experience. It as much or as little provable as the experience of love. For an external observer what somebody calls his love experience may appear as total confusion, but for the one who experiences it ... well yes. Same with sound and aesthetic enjoyment.
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
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chiral3
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by chiral3 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:45 pm

I never argue in favor of my apophenia or against someone else's.
物の哀れ

rpavich
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rpavich » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:51 pm

chiral3 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:45 pm
I never argue in favor of my apophenia or against someone else's.
Lol..congratulations on making me use "right click>look up word" for the first time this year :)

rpavich
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rpavich » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:06 pm

I was registering my tonerite and noticed an article by Gordon Kennedy about his experience with the unit. He also mentions that the Gibson repair guys at Gibson Restoration & Repair in Nashville use them too.
Ed King from Lynyrd Skynard, Pete Anderson, and Easton Corbin use one.


https://www.tonerite.com/blogs/celebrit ... -blog-post

It sure SEEMS like something is happening.

Alan Carruth
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by Alan Carruth » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:00 am

rpavitch wrote:
"There’s nothing wrong with anecdotal experience. Its not automatically invalid."

It's not automatically valid either. Nor is the fact that lots of folks believe something evidence of truth. The whole point of scientific investigation is to find out which beliefs are well grounded in reality, whether or not they fit in with popular opinion.

roojarosguitar wrote:
"Where this improvement actually lies nobody can tell and I'd rather suspect even science can't answer, because also science tends to separate or isolate something that to my understanding is not separable..."

The 'irreducible complexity' argument? What's more complex than the human body? We all go to doctors, though, and most of modern medicine is based on scientific studies that carefully isloated variables to determine how things went wrong and come up with good ways to fix them.

I'm not denying that we learn to play a particlar instrument better over time, or improve our own skills in general, or even learn to hear better. What I am saying is that, to the extent something changes in the guitar that contributes to 'warming up' or 'playing in', then it has to be a physical change that is measureable. It's not spiritual, or a flow of 'chi', or whatever, nor does it preclude all of the other contributions that are harder to measure.

I'm also not a person who feels that 'ignorance is bliss'. It doesn't strike me that knowing how a guitar works has reduced my enjoyment of it in the least. Does a scholarly understanding of the technical aspects of fugue diminish your appreciation of Bach? If anything, it must increase it, I would think.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rojarosguitar » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:42 am

Medicine has its limits, too. Where the isolation of factors works, it works, but there are limits that probably will be overcome only by a broader view.
I'm not trying to paint black and white. Everybody has the freedom to have his or her own point of view. From my own experience as a player and from my many talks with accomplished instrument makers I'd rather guess that there always remains a bit of something that can't be analyzed scientifically, let alone predicted on the basis of measurement.

No ignorance is not bliss, but fragmented knowledge is bliss neither. Take care :D
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
My Youtube Channel is: TheMusicalEvents

Rognvald
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by Rognvald » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:20 pm

I'd rather guess that there always remains a bit of something that can't be analyzed scientifically, let alone predicted on the basis of measurement. Rojaro

For the record, I believe that Alan makes a very convincing, rational argument that is grounded in the basis of all good Science. And, we must be careful when we choose to ignore good science as was evidenced in my example of "healing magnets" in an earlier post. However, there are, at times, real differences in sound that are not easily explained or quantifiable as in the case of Stradavarius cellos and violins where some of these instruments sing better than others. Their construction is the same, their tonewoods are the same as well as the builder. Yet, why the difference? So, my belief is a combination of Alan's and Rojaro's--both Science and Black Magic. Perhaps this is what makes our game so interesting. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Alan Carruth
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by Alan Carruth » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:18 pm

It is certainly true that there are aspects of guitar sound that are impossible to predict. The guitar is far more complex than most people imagine, and wiith so many moving parts interacting with each other there comes a point where it is simply impossible to control the outcome in advance. Having tried a few times I can tell you that making 'identical' sounding guitars is at least extremely difficult, and may well be impossible, for that reason. At some point any complex system, including the human body, will be like that. OTOH, how close do you need to get to be 'close enough'?

There is a violin maker in Germany who builds 'tonal copies' of very high end violins, such as Strads and Guarnaris. He has a PhD in physics, and a Master's rating in the German violin maker's guild, neither of which is easy to get. He uses a laser setup both to get exact dimensions of the fiddles to be copied, and also to determine how they vibrate as well as he can. He uses all of this informaiton to produce what they call a 'bench copy'; an instrument that looks exactly like the original, including all the wear marks and repairs, that also sounds and plays very much like it. Basically, a very good player can tell the difference (maybe), but nobody in the audience can. The insurance companies love this guy. He also says that an 'exact' copy is beyond his power except by luck. Violin makers have been trying for a couple of hundred years to make close tonal copies of Strads on a consistent basis using 'art'. Once in a while somebody would get close, but not consistently. For that it took some science.

I will note as well that there is no way to say on the basis of first principles what a 'perfect' guitar should be. That's been tried and found wanting. There's nothing wrong with using physics and so on to design something that you think might be perfect, but in the end the only way to fiind out if you're right is to hand it to some players and see. There is no objective metric of 'good' in this case: it's an artisic judgement. As it turns out, at least in my opinion, one of the things that makes a 'good' guitar is the very complexity that makes it hard to duplicate. That's where the 'tone color' comes from.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Guitar Waking Up?

Post by rojarosguitar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:06 am

@Alan: So now we came very close... that's what I mean, much more eloquently expressed. Take care.
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
My Youtube Channel is: TheMusicalEvents

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