Ramirez - Bracing Comparison Across Series (A Never-Before Topic)

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
Kenneth
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 am

Ramirez - Bracing Comparison Across Series (A Never-Before Topic)

Post by Kenneth » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:12 am

Calling to all Ramirez Players for your input on this subject and clarify on the Ramirez bracing design throughout their models. I believe this has not been raised yet in the forum and any input would be valuable and enlightening.

I am inclined to purchase a Ramirez guitar and I have played models from their low range (Studio) up to Conservatorio and SPR which I believe is among their intermediate level. Now I know that there are a few bracing patterns devised and I may not be very accurate at describing them (please correct me if I am wrong) but here goes. The Anos/Del Tiempo models have the traditional six fan bracing system but is rear shifted from the soundhole a certain extent and there are lesser braces making it a lighter guitar, as compared to the NAE/NE guitars which have the original non-shifted bracing and original design which makes it heavier. The SPR/Conservatorio have some eight fan strut bracing system that is a different design completely. As are the unique bracing systems, is also the difference in tonal qualities of these guitars. I think that the A1 has the same bracing design as the NE models, which design has been left the most 'un-touched' to honor or stay true to the original design of the 19th century and the key difference really being the premium woods used that give the A1's a more refined voice, but other than that, the NE line is the series that harnesses sound closest to the A1 because of similarity. And yes, I know many will say that the A1 of the past is not the A1 of the now so on and so forth that is really alright I just want something that takes after the A1 in tone I do not need the exact sweet tone of the A1, and unable to finance their top-shelf instruments. If the NE line were to come the closest, that would mean the 3NAE still in production.

To my understanding, Amalia has made so many 'improvements' in so many models; including the top shelf, intermediate, and lower range studio models except the NE/NAE I think. But improvement is subjective some like it some don't. I just can't help but feel that these improvements move away from the traditional Ramirez sound. For example, some of the newer implementations make the Ramirez's sound warm and responsive but are so so so bright and responsive with a bell-tone. My idea of the Ramirez, as per its tonal origins is dark, mellow, large bass, warm and responsive. The Anos is a perfect illustration here. It sounds so bright especially in the upper registers that it really steps out of Ramirez tone territory a little (Not a 100%), but a lot.

I can't help but wonder if the fan base for these newer designs and tone really understand what the Ramirez tone is supposed to be. Amalia seems to be moving into a brighter tone territory that is, I don't know characteristic of some other brands with bright sounding guitars and I think fans of Anos etc, are inclined towards the modern Ramirez sound instead of the traditional Ramirez sound. To those who feel the Anos has the Ramirez sound please explain how this is so as I find the model way too bright especially above the 12th fret it sounds so bright, thin, plinkish and jarring that it sounds artificial and painful. In the lower frets it is bright as well still moderately acceptable but in higher registers it suffers (for myself only) can't say about others. The NAE/NE sounds warm and matured even after the 12th fret and appears to retain the Ramirez sound the most out of the studio models. Some of the top-line models are also bright but some models are warmer and have an older sound and yes I know each guitar sounds different but the bracing systems do play a huge undeniable role.

Are people liking the current bracing 'improvements' done by Amalia really actually liking the modern Ramirez sound instead of the old sound (NAE/A1)? I have played various models and I do prefer the traditionally voiced Ramirez :|

No one has ever raised this, so I thought this thread might be interesting.

Do share your opinions, and please correct me if I was wrong about anything mentioned.

ChristianSchwengeler
Luthier
Posts: 1168
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:18 pm
Location: Lisbon Portugal

Re: Ramirez - Bracing Comparison Across Series (A Never-Before Topic)

Post by ChristianSchwengeler » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:27 am

You would have to post some pictures with bracing pattern in relation with what you do experience on the different models. Also the finish of the top and the thickening of the top, the quality of the wood which was used does have some influence, and it is not the bracing alone.

Kenneth
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 am

Re: Ramirez - Bracing Comparison Across Series (A Never-Before Topic)

Post by Kenneth » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:56 am

Dear Christian,

Thanks for your input. I understand that bracing alone does not affect sound, as does quality wood, craftsmanship, top thickness etc. I do not have pictures of the 130 Anos/ 4NE/ SPR/ Conserv/ bracing although the standard 1A bracing is generally known to be like this
Ramirez 1A Bracing.jpg
I do understand that for the 130 Anos, Ramirez has verified that the entire bracing starts much lower from the sound-hole, which gives the Anos and (possibly a few other makes) that follows this bracing a bright sound, which brings me back to my question as 'bright' guitars are not associated with Ramirez. Yes it is entirely possible that there are other factors such as the German Spruce used on the Anos. All factors considered, I would like to hear some feedback frpm owners of the 125/130 Anos or its sister 2017 release, 135 Anos (Del Tiempo) on the overall sound, based on the numerous factors (I do acknowledge) involved, how it is still associated with a Ramirez tone when it is not dark and mellow by Ramirez origins, but instead bright and sparkly? Some say it has the Ramirez tone but how is this so? I am not saying the Anos is a bad guitar, it just sounds different. I'm just looking for some opinions. I have heard people say it sounds nothing like the Ramirez tone origins and I agree to an extent it does deviate.

Is there anyone who agrees that the NE line stays true to the Ramirez tone (As it does adopt the A1 bracing, but not just, overall the tone is closer as well; all factors considered) more than the Anos do?

I actually refer to the spruce models of the NAE/NE and Anos.
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