Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

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Kenneth
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Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 am

Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Kenneth » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:13 pm

Dear Ramirez Owners,

I am considering getting a 3NAE Spruce which is an alternate cheaper version of the discontinued 4E (Technically both are discontinued). I am inclined on getting the 3NAE while it is still available in stores. Less keen on the Anos due to its shattering brightness especially in higher registers.

I could use some feedback on the difference between these two models, and if they are similar in built and construction, and tonal palette as well, thanks.

Lovemyguitar
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Location: Canada

Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Lovemyguitar » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:51 pm

Here is a discussion on the 3NAE and the 130 Años that may be relevant to you:

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/v ... hp?t=98179

If you are keen on a spruce top, as far as I know the 4E/4NE were only made with cedar tops. I have a 2005 4E, which has a very warm sound, what one might associate with a cedar-topped Ramirez.

Philosopherguy
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Location: Niagara, Ontario, Canada

Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Philosopherguy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:18 pm

I own a 130Anos and a 4NE and I really don't find the 130Anos to be overly bright at all. Of course, it would depend on the strings you use. I can tell you that the 130Anos in Spruce is brighter than the 4NE, because the 4NE in cedar is quite a dark sounding guitar. But, I wouldn't say the 130Anos is brighter than most other guitars in its category.

I will say this: from the perspective of the player, guitars can sound much different than they do to the listening audience. Cedar tends to sound much warmer and more mellow to the player, whereas spruce sounds more responsive and brighter to the player. However, from the perspective of the listener, I don't think this always holds true. This is why when guitars are recorded, people can't tell the difference between spruce and cedar. There can be differences at times, but I think that is mostly due to construction and other factors that play into a "typical sound". I can tell you that from the perspective of the listener, the spruce 130Anos is very similar to the cedar 130Anos after the spruce has "broken in" and the guitar has aged a little. My Spruce 130Anos matured quite a bit in the first couple years with the biggest change happening in the first few months really.

That being said, you have to buy the guitar you think is best. But, as far as most things are concerned, I think the 130Anos is a fine guitar and holds its own with many guitars. It is likely my favourite guitar to play of my guitars because I find it so comfortable. All my guitars have a nice sound, but I just find the 130Anos to be very balanced and articulate to practice on.

Most people I know that I have asked think that the 130Anos sounds a little more akin to older more traditional guitars and that the 4NE has a little more of that 60's and 70's Ramirez tone because of the cedar top. But, you would find that they have more in common to their sound than differences from the perspective of the listener. They both have those "bell-like" Ramirez trebles with a nice little growl in the bass.

Good luck!
Martin
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

Scott Phillips
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Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Scott Phillips » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:11 am

I own a 4NE, but you can get the 3NAE in Spruce for right around 2 grand. The reason that I was attracted to the cedar top was partly due to the fact that it was discounted to a little more than 2 grand. I’m not saying that it sounds better or worse than Spruce. It’s just different and the one that I picked sounded warm. But I would like a Spruce Ramirez. The 4E could be a good guitar, if the price is right.

Kenneth
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Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 am

Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Kenneth » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:16 am

Lovemyguitar wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:51 pm

If you are keen on a spruce top, as far as I know the 4E/4NE were only made with cedar tops. I have a 2005 4E, which has a very warm sound, what one might associate with a cedar-topped Ramirez.
My mistake, I thought the 4E came in variations of spruce and cedar. To avoid confusion, I am definitely looking for spruce, so its the NAE spruce vs the Anos for me, and thanks for pointing to the thread, interesting insight . I do wonder about the new Studio models though. Their R series seem to have been discontinued since a certain time as I don't see those in the listings and now its just the Studio models which I hardly hear any reviews on from people who actually own them. I did manage to try both the 3NAE and Anos side by side at the store and found them to be worlds apart.

Kenneth
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 am

Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Kenneth » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:38 am

Philosopherguy wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:18 pm
I own a 130Anos and a 4NE and I really don't find the 130Anos to be overly bright at all. Of course, it would depend on the strings you use. I can tell you that the 130Anos in Spruce is brighter than the 4NE, because the 4NE in cedar is quite a dark sounding guitar. But, I wouldn't say the 130Anos is brighter than most other guitars in its category.

I will say this: from the perspective of the player, guitars can sound much different than they do to the listening audience. Cedar tends to sound much warmer and more mellow to the player, whereas spruce sounds more responsive and brighter to the player. However, from the perspective of the listener, I don't think this always holds true. This is why when guitars are recorded, people can't tell the difference between spruce and cedar. There can be differences at times, but I think that is mostly due to construction and other factors that play into a "typical sound". I can tell you that from the perspective of the listener, the spruce 130Anos is very similar to the cedar 130Anos after the spruce has "broken in" and the guitar has aged a little. My Spruce 130Anos matured quite a bit in the first couple years with the biggest change happening in the first few months really.

That being said, you have to buy the guitar you think is best. But, as far as most things are concerned, I think the 130Anos is a fine guitar and holds its own with many guitars. It is likely my favourite guitar to play of my guitars because I find it so comfortable. All my guitars have a nice sound, but I just find the 130Anos to be very balanced and articulate to practice on.

Most people I know that I have asked think that the 130Anos sounds a little more akin to older more traditional guitars and that the 4NE has a little more of that 60's and 70's Ramirez tone because of the cedar top. But, you would find that they have more in common to their sound than differences from the perspective of the listener. They both have those "bell-like" Ramirez trebles with a nice little growl in the bass.
Thanks for the detailed write-up on your experience. I tried the 3NAE and Anos side by side in the store with the same exact strings on them (Ramirez Strings). Both were spruce so a more 'equal' comparison. I do note that the wood selection and bracing design on both is different, despite both being solid tops, the Anos has German Spruce and it has rear shifted bracing with less bracing that makes it lighter and more responsive, kind of like having a really open and bright sound. The 3NAE was worlds different from what I remember. Everything about the 3NAE was what I would describe as strong and heavy voice, fundamental, boxy and dark sound (Total opposite of the Anos). The Anos was very responsive and open and definitely brighter sounding than the 3NAE if you managed to try one, again both spruce. I have read reviews of users saying their Anos is too bright as well, but I guess that is why we have a few models to choose from.

The mention of "bell-like" Ramirez trebles makes me wonder too. I have heard old Ramirez guitars that came in Spruce versions for example of the A1 and the sound wasn't bright and thin at all, instead it was warm, fat and rich tone. I have always associated the Ramirez sound with darker, boxy, warm, and rich instead of having bright and shattering trebles with many overtones and dynamic range which are more characteristic of some makers, but not what Ramirez is known for? Hence, it puzzles me which voice is more traditional sounding of early spruce models compared with the Anos and NAE or their new Studio line?

Take a listen to this on the early spruce model. So warm, dark and rich and does sound closer to the NAE (original bracing design) than the Anos. I sort of feel the Anos has a new Ramirez sound. Amalia actually altered the designs on the Anos to give it a different sound as opposed to the NAE which she had left the original bracing design of the early construction methods.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB0CfAZ4UkY[/YouTube]

Kenneth
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Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Kenneth » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:44 am

Laudiesdad69 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:11 am
I own a 4NE, but you can get the 3NAE in Spruce for right around 2 grand. The reason that I was attracted to the cedar top was partly due to the fact that it was discounted to a little more than 2 grand. I’m not saying that it sounds better or worse than Spruce. It’s just different and the one that I picked sounded warm. But I would like a Spruce Ramirez. The 4E could be a good guitar, if the price is right.
I am definitely getting a spruce, I had thought the 4E came in spruce versions, but I know better now. Its the 3NAE or Anos now, and I don't understand why some associate them as being similar as I find them worlds apart after trying a few of each. The 3NAE may have less overtones but it is more balanced I feel and has a classic Ramirez tone, not that the Anos doesn't but the Anos does deviate away a little, being bright and shimmering and all.

Scott Phillips
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Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Scott Phillips » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:06 am

Kenneth wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:44 am
Laudiesdad69 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:11 am
I own a 4NE, but you can get the 3NAE in Spruce for right around 2 grand. The reason that I was attracted to the cedar top was partly due to the fact that it was discounted to a little more than 2 grand. I’m not saying that it sounds better or worse than Spruce. It’s just different and the one that I picked sounded warm. But I would like a Spruce Ramirez. The 4E could be a good guitar, if the price is right.
I am definitely getting a spruce, I had thought the 4E came in spruce versions, but I know better now. Its the 3NAE or Anos now, and I don't understand why some associate them as being similar as I find them worlds apart after trying a few of each. The 3NAE may have less overtones but it is more balanced I feel and has a classic Ramirez tone, not that the Anos doesn't but the Anos does deviate away a little, being bright and shimmering and all.
I had an Anos in Cedar. It was warm, but with a bit of shimmer and clarity in the trebles. A bit bell like. Much like my 4NE, but maybe a little brighter. I will have to see if I can’t scoop up a 3NAE in Spruce. I’m really wanting a spruce guitar. I have had a Ramirez George Harrison, 2E, 2NE, R4, as well. They were all really good, but I think I kept the 4NE the longest as it sounds more traditional to me.

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ameriken
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Location: Westminster, Co USA

Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by ameriken » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:23 am

Kenneth wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:44 am
but the Anos does deviate away a little, being bright and shimmering and all.
Do you know what kind of strings are on the Anos?
Amalio Burguet 1A Spruce
Takamine C-132S

Kenneth
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 am

Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Kenneth » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:00 am

Laudiesdad69 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:06 am
Kenneth wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:44 am
Laudiesdad69 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:11 am
I own a 4NE, but you can get the 3NAE in Spruce for right around 2 grand. The reason that I was attracted to the cedar top was partly due to the fact that it was discounted to a little more than 2 grand. I’m not saying that it sounds better or worse than Spruce. It’s just different and the one that I picked sounded warm. But I would like a Spruce Ramirez. The 4E could be a good guitar, if the price is right.
I am definitely getting a spruce, I had thought the 4E came in spruce versions, but I know better now. Its the 3NAE or Anos now, and I don't understand why some associate them as being similar as I find them worlds apart after trying a few of each. The 3NAE may have less overtones but it is more balanced I feel and has a classic Ramirez tone, not that the Anos doesn't but the Anos does deviate away a little, being bright and shimmering and all.
I had an Anos in Cedar. It was warm, but with a bit of shimmer and clarity in the trebles. A bit bell like. Much like my 4NE, but maybe a little brighter. I will have to see if I can’t scoop up a 3NAE in Spruce. I’m really wanting a spruce guitar. I have had a Ramirez George Harrison, 2E, 2NE, R4, as well. They were all really good, but I think I kept the 4NE the longest as it sounds more traditional to me.
This was what I thought too, that the NAE spruce sounded more traditional and less bright.

Kenneth
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Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 am

Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Kenneth » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:01 am

ameriken wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:23 am
Kenneth wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:44 am
but the Anos does deviate away a little, being bright and shimmering and all.
Do you know what kind of strings are on the Anos?
Both have Ramirez strings (The Anos and the 3NAE). I am posting a video below on the differences so you all can take a listen.

Kenneth
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 am

Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Kenneth » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:11 am

These are two videos taken at the guitar store on the 3NAE and 130 Anos with Ramirez Strings fitted. It is more apparent when trying out in person but even in the video it is noticeable that the NAE has a darker/mature nature and the Anos sounds the opposite. I know in the videos they sound similar though I can still detect subtle differences. More apparent when actually playing them. Both have Ramirez strings on them. Please do share your opinions

3NAE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_21GuX ... e=youtu.be[/YouTube]

Anos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdoi9YH ... e=youtu.be[/YouTube]
Last edited by Kenneth on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kenneth
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Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Kenneth » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:20 am

I have also been listening to this video on their new Studio line instruments. Featured is the Studio 3 model in both Spruce and Cedar. Listen to them go, really has the traditional Ramirez sound I love.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2kODQ65qhA[/YouTube]

Lovemyguitar
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Location: Canada

Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Lovemyguitar » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:36 am

The only difference I could discern between the two spruce guitars in your shop videos is that I thought that the Años had a bit more resonance (overtones?) than the 3NAE, but otherwise they sounded the same to me, tone-wise (although I am not doubting that they sounded different to you in person).

That '63 spruce sounded wonderful, but spruce does tend to get warmer with passing years (as Martin said, his 130 Años got warmer even after a few months), and of course, we have no idea what that guitar sounded like when it was brand new.

As for the new Studio 3 guitars in that duet, I am afraid that I thought they sounded horrible: I did not hear a "traditional Ramirez sound" at all -- it sounded more like duelling banjos.

When it comes down to it, what we (or anybody else) thinks about a guitar or its sound is not relevant, because you are the one who has to play it and live with it, and so it only has to make you happy! Best of luck, and enjoy whatever you buy!

Kenneth
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 am

Re: Ramirez 4E vs 3NAE

Post by Kenneth » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:50 am

Lovemyguitar wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:36 am
The only difference I could discern between the two spruce guitars in your shop videos is that I thought that the Años had a bit more resonance (overtones?) than the 3NAE, but otherwise they sounded the same to me, tone-wise (although I am not doubting that they sounded different to you in person).

That '63 spruce sounded wonderful, but spruce does tend to get warmer with passing years (as Martin said, his 130 Años got warmer even after a few months), and of course, we have no idea what that guitar sounded like when it was brand new.

As for the new Studio 3 guitars in that duet, I am afraid that I thought they sounded horrible: I did not hear a "traditional Ramirez sound" at all -- it sounded more like duelling banjos.

When it comes down to it, what we (or anybody else) thinks about a guitar or its sound is not relevant, because you are the one who has to play it and live with it, and so it only has to make you happy! Best of luck, and enjoy whatever you buy!
Gosh, I must be confused having listened to so many models. The Studio line is a slippery slope then I guess? The frustrating thing is they keep changing their design structure and sound in their various lines and its hard to keep up with the tonal difference. Maybe that's a reason why their Studio guitars don't get much spotlight or any honorable mentions from people owning the Studio guitars. In the new catalogs it is always mentioned they alter the design/bracing here and there. But we who love Ramirez love the sound of Ramirez. Why try to "improve" it and make it "anti" Ramirez or as you said banjo sounding.

The video on the Studio line was just released five days ago on Youtube I realized. Really hoping for more feedback on the Studio line from others - Yay or Nay?

Thanks for the input!

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