Radamés Gnattali

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
rafitas123
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Radamés Gnattali

Post by rafitas123 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:52 am

I recently gave a new look at Radamés 10 studies for the guitar and got amazed by both the musicality and level they present. I tried to search for more info about them online and could not find much.

What do you think about them? Are they part of concert repertoire like the Villa Lobos etudes?

Thanks!

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David Norton
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Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by David Norton » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:52 am

rafitas123 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:52 am
I recently gave a new look at Radamés 10 studies for the guitar and got amazed by both the musicality and level they present. I tried to search for more info about them online and could not find much.

What do you think about them? Are they part of concert repertoire like the Villa Lobos etudes?
The fact that you "tried to search for more info about them online and could not find much" serves as the clearest answer to how they are perceived by performers, in comparison to the HVL Etudes.
David Norton
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First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

rafitas123
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Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by rafitas123 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:48 pm

David Norton wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:52 am

The fact that you "tried to search for more info about them online and could not find much" serves as the clearest answer to how they are perceived by performers, in comparison to the HVL Etudes.

Of course, but do you know why so? I imagine it could be attributed to the Segovia's recordings of Villa Lobos and the fact that Radamés music did not left Brazil as much as the prior.

These are still wonderful etudes that could be played more often by the community, in my opinion of course :)

Altophile

Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by Altophile » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:10 pm

rafitas123 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:52 am
I recently gave a new look at Radamés 10 studies for the guitar and got amazed by both the musicality and level they present. I tried to search for more info about them online and could not find much.

What do you think about them? Are they part of concert repertoire like the Villa Lobos etudes?

Thanks!
The world of classical guitar is in a self-perpetuated rutt. Performers learn the same pieces in college and then when they start recording, since those are the pieces they know ("standard repertoire"), that's what they record. It's rather sad, really, as there is so much music out there that one can scarcely find recordings of, e.g. many if not most of the wonderful composotions in David Grimes's superb three-volume anthology of Baroque music, just to name one.

markworthi
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Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by markworthi » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:19 pm

Rafitas,

You've inspired me to take another look, as well. I agree, the Ten Studies, seem to be underappreciated. I don't know why. There's a lot to like, but they are technically challenging, I guess.

By any chance, do you speak Portuguese? Fabio Zanon has a blog in which you can listen to his radio programs about Brazilian composers/guitarists. Radames Gnattali is the main topic in at least three of those programs, but they are in Portuguese (which I cannot understand, unfortunately). The third program features the Ten Studies. Here's a link:

http://vcfz.blogspot.com/2006/05/22-rad ... i-iii.html

Best regards,

Mark

rafitas123
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Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by rafitas123 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:35 pm

Hi Mark,

I did not knew about this blog, thank you for sharing it! Zanon is an amazing playing and I sure his contributions towards this topics are significant. Fortunately I do speak portuguese so I can share what he talks about after I listen to the program.

Best regards,
Rafael

markworthi
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Location: Forest Hills, NY

Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by markworthi » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:42 pm

rafitas123 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:35 pm
Hi Mark,

I did not knew about this blog, thank you for sharing it! Zanon is an amazing playing and I sure his contributions towards this topics are significant. Fortunately I do speak portuguese so I can share what he talks about after I listen to the program.

Best regards,
Rafael
Excellent-- please do! I can only understand every third of fourth word in Portuguese (the ones that sound like Spanish), and I look forward to hearing, in general, what you find out.

All the best,

Mark

rafitas123
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Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by rafitas123 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:58 pm

markworthi wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:42 pm

Excellent-- please do! I can only understand every third of fourth word in Portuguese (the ones that sound like Spanish), and I look forward to hearing, in general, what you find out.

All the best,

Mark
Zanon talks about the end of the barrier the classical and popular forms of arts. It is now a normal practice (at least in Brazil) but 60-70 years ago, the big european influence originated from the immigrants in Brazil was against it.

Gnattali was both a pioneer and a main voice in the academy when bridging concert and the instrumental popular music of the time.

(Dança Brasileira, dedicated to Laurindo Almeida, a concert study comes in)

Even though he was a virtuoso at the piano, Gnattali appreciated the guitar and knew how to play it. In the 40s he got in contact with the great guitar players from the radio that had a classical background (Laurindo Almeida, Zé Menezes and Garoto).

(Toccata em Ritmo de Samba I comes in, the first solo guitar piece from Gnattali) - compares the rhythm from the piece with the samba from the 40s and relates to the syncopation presented in jazz. This piece is significant since it elevates the Samba as a concert music, thing that the population of the time would never even consider about the genre.

(Toccata em Ritmo de Samba II comes in) The first 3 pieces are the concert studies and were made in 31 years.

The 10 studies for the guitar were made in one year, 1967, they are not as complex as the concerts but lay down the styles of the brazilian guitar and present new ideas compared with the other studies of the brazilian guitar (Villa Lobos and Mignone). While the Villa Lobos studies are the most played, Mignone had 30 of ostracism until they were rehabilitated. Gnattali is in between hidden as secret from the students who should have been the target audience.

The first study, which was dedicated to Turibio Santos, consists in a series of syncopated arpeggios heavily influenced by Villa Lobos.

The second study, has a different harmonization process (as a chromatic sequence) which seems to melt. Gnattali was heavily criticized by the Choro player for dismantling the genre. It is a Waltz Seresta (don’t know how to translate this word!) dedicated to Valteo Blanco.

The third study, is an irregular arpeggio study (as opposed to the first study), the main melody follows a Jobim song and is dedicated to Jodacil do Amaceno.

The fourth study, has a pentatonic melody and is a Toada (popular country rhythm). Has 2 variations one based in arpeggios and another in parallelism. The study is dedicated to Nelson Piló.

The fifth study is completely different from the rest of the collection, 3 strings change their tuning to imitate the Viola Caipira (cebolão). The piece incorporate the harmonic mistakes made from the players of this folk instrument and their music (Música Caipira). It is dedicated to Sérgio Abreu, one of the most renowned classical players, showing the sense of humor of the composer.

The sixth study seems like a samba-bossa nova. Since it has no clear tonal center it seems ambiguous and has some elements of improvisation that appears frequently on his work. It is dedicated to Geraldo Vespá.

The study number seven is another piece influenced by Villa Lobos and a tribute to Carlos Barbosa Lima.

The eight study is a song with an interrogative melody, a touch of blues and a chromatic harmonization. The theme gets clearer as the song progresses until it comes back to its original mysterious form. It is dedicated to Darci Villa Verde.

The ninth study, dedicated to Eduardo Abreu, is one of the most challenging of the 10, following a Frevo rhythmic pattern and hard drills.

The last study of the collection is dedicated to Garoto (a close friend of Radamés and revolutionary player) and based on one of his most famous choros, Gracioso.

In the 80s he wrote 2 solo guitar concert pieces, the one played in the program is Brasiliana N13. This piece is divided in 3 movements, Valsa, Choro and Samba, these rhythms are already diluted from their original parts making the piece similar to the jazz compositions of the time.
Last edited by rafitas123 on Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rafitas123
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Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by rafitas123 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:59 pm

I hope you can understand it, I translated as I listened and eventually got a bit tired hahah. But the essential parts are there!

markworthi
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Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:33 pm
Location: Forest Hills, NY

Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by markworthi » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:21 pm

rafitas123 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:59 pm
I hope you can understand it, I translated as I listened and eventually got a bit tired hahah. But the essential parts are there!
Thanks very much for taking the time to write this, Rafitas! I suppose that, although Gnattali was attempting to bridge the distance between "classical" music and more popular forms (including Jazz and the music of popular Brazilian artists, like Jobim and Garoto), many classical guitarists are still more comfortable with the separation of these worlds. I am not sure why. As you've written, the studies are quite rich musically and technically demanding.
I haven't learned any of them, as they've been a bit beyond me up until now. But I think I'll give one a try, and your description will help me better understand whichever I choose.

By the way, the amount of resources devoted to guitar in Brazil (and the depth in presenting those resources) shows how revered the guitar is there, how valued it is as cultural capital. I really wish I could speak Portuguese. If you don't know about it already, you might also be interested in Nelson Faria's Youtube channel, which is mostly about Brazilian jazz guitar. But I always learn something there (even with the help of dubious captions in English) :) .

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC8sjL ... IgQXIT5tcQ

Best regards,

Mark

rafitas123
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Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by rafitas123 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:05 pm

I am pleased to hear that! Brazil has a very strong tradition of popular instrumental music (the Choro) and I believe that because of that and the classical influence you see many cross players such as Raphael Rabello, Yamandu Costa, Alessandro Pennezi. Villa-Lobos himself used to frequent the Choro ensembles!

Nelsos Faria's channel is a treat, not only he brings the best players of the country but often share his knowledge with the viewers.

If you want to get more information about the Brazilian guitar I would advise you to go to *** Site blocked for copyright reasons *** . net , it is a wonderful forum about this way of playing guitar. Many famous musicians are present on it and there are very insightful posts.

markworthi
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Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:33 pm
Location: Forest Hills, NY

Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by markworthi » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:18 pm

rafitas123 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:05 pm
If you want to get more information about the Brazilian guitar I would advise you to go to *** Site blocked for copyright reasons *** . net , it is a wonderful forum about this way of playing guitar. Many famous musicians are present on it and there are very insightful posts.

Oops, looks like it was blocked. If you can give me a hint of search terms, I will look for it!

Thanks again,

Mark

rafitas123
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by rafitas123 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:49 pm

markworthi wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:18 pm
rafitas123 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:05 pm
If you want to get more information about the Brazilian guitar I would advise you to go to *** Site blocked for copyright reasons *** . net , it is a wonderful forum about this way of playing guitar. Many famous musicians are present on it and there are very insightful posts.

Oops, looks like it was blocked. If you can give me a hint of search terms, I will look for it!

Thanks again,

Mark
Search for Baden Powell Technique and for an website with Brazilian Guitar as the main name!

musicbyandy
Posts: 340
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:53 pm

Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by musicbyandy » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:47 pm

rafitas123 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:58 pm
markworthi wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:42 pm

Excellent-- please do! I can only understand every third of fourth word in Portuguese (the ones that sound like Spanish), and I look forward to hearing, in general, what you find out.

All the best,

Mark
Zanon talks about the end of the barrier the classical and popular forms of arts. It is now a normal practice (at least in Brazil) but 60-70 years ago, the big european influence originated from the immigrants in Brazil was against it.

Gnattali was both a pioneer and a main voice in the academy when bridging concert and the instrumental popular music of the time.

(Dança Brasileira, dedicated to Laurindo Almeida, a concert study comes in)

Even though he was a virtuoso at the piano, Gnattali appreciated the guitar and knew how to play it. In the 40s he got in contact with the great guitar players from the radio that had a classical background (Laurindo Almeida, Zé Menezes and Garoto).

(Toccata em Ritmo de Samba I comes in, the first solo guitar piece from Gnattali) - compares the rhythm from the piece with the samba from the 40s and relates to the syncopation presented in jazz. This piece is significant since it elevates the Samba as a concert music, thing that the population of the time would never even consider about the genre.

(Toccata em Ritmo de Samba II comes in) The first 3 pieces are the concert studies and were made in 31 years.

The 10 studies for the guitar were made in one year, 1967, they are not as complex as the concerts but lay down the styles of the brazilian guitar and present new ideas compared with the other studies of the brazilian guitar (Villa Lobos and Mignone). While the Villa Lobos studies are the most played, Mignone had 30 of ostracism until they were rehabilitated. Gnattali is in between hidden as secret from the students who should have been the target audience.

The first study, which was dedicated to Turibio Santos, consists in a series of syncopated arpeggios heavily influenced by Villa Lobos.

The second study, has a different harmonization process (as a chromatic sequence) which seems to melt. Gnattali was heavily criticized by the Choro player for dismantling the genre. It is a Waltz Seresta (don’t know how to translate this word!) dedicated to Valteo Blanco.

The third study, is an irregular arpeggio study (as opposed to the first study), the main melody follows a Jobim song and is dedicated to Jodacil do Amaceno.

The fourth study, has a pentatonic melody and is a Toada (popular country rhythm). Has 2 variations one based in arpeggios and another in parallelism. The study is dedicated to Nelson Piló.

The fifth study is completely different from the rest of the collection, 3 strings change their tuning to imitate the Viola Caipira (cebolão). The piece incorporate the harmonic mistakes made from the players of this folk instrument and their music (Música Caipira). It is dedicated to Sérgio Abreu, one of the most renowned classical players, showing the sense of humor of the composer.

The sixth study seems like a samba-bossa nova. Since it has no clear tonal center it seems ambiguous and has some elements of improvisation that appears frequently on his work. It is dedicated to Geraldo Vespá.

The study number seven is another piece influenced by Villa Lobos and a tribute to Carlos Barbosa Lima.

The eight study is a song with an interrogative melody, a touch of blues and a chromatic harmonization. The theme gets clearer as the song progresses until it comes back to its original mysterious form. It is dedicated to Darci Villa Verde.

The ninth study, dedicated to Eduardo Abreu, is one of the most challenging of the 10, following a Frevo rhythmic pattern and hard drills.

The last study of the collection is dedicated to Garoto (a close friend of Radamés and revolutionary player) and based on one of his most famous choros, Gracioso.

In the 80s he wrote 2 solo guitar concert pieces, the one played in the program is Brasiliana N13. This piece is divided in 3 movements, Valsa, Choro and Samba, these rhythms are already diluted from their original parts making the piece similar to the jazz compositions of the time.
Thank you for translating!

Luis_Br
Posts: 2332
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:50 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Radamés Gnattali

Post by Luis_Br » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:13 pm

rafitas123 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:58 pm
The second study, has a different harmonization process (as a chromatic sequence) which seems to melt. Gnattali was heavily criticized by the Choro player for dismantling the genre. It is a Waltz Seresta (don’t know how to translate this word!) dedicated to Valteo Blanco.
Just a correction, the correct name is Waltel Branco, who was an important Brazilian composer, arranger and guitarrist. Waltel met Henry Mancini and was part of his crew. For example, Waltel is the arranger of the famous Pink Panther Theme. In Brazil there was a recent pubication of Waltel pieces for solo guitar, distributed for free to musicians. Mostly short pieces. Edson Lopes plays a few pieces by Waltel in his youtube channel.

About the Gnatalli studies. Here in Brazil a lot of guitar students play several of them. I think it is only not very well known outside Brazil. Besides Villa-Lobos, hardly other Brazilian composers are played outside Brazil. But I think it is natural. It also happens in other countries. Only the most famous ones are generally played.

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