Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 973
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue May 21, 2019 4:30 pm

nico wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:22 pm
...
Thank you Jorge for your nice words and your advise :) Yeah ...... I new already that you didn't specially like the staccato way I was playing the #2 (and also not that I missed the second repeat :( ) Actually I was inspired by the way Gallagner was playing it in the beginning of this thread. But here is another version of it that will suit you more...... I still like the first version better :wink: . But you're right that there were a couple of very soft bass notes, and I started to hate the way I was playing the first beats: too agitated and loud. This version is softer, but also a bit dull 8)
Sor Opus 35 #2
What do you think?
I like it better this second version, nico,... but that is just a very much subjective opinion :D. The basses are now clearly there and I think your RH is no longer so near to the bridge. You may find it dull because, I think, you decreased the tempo a little bit and you are not playing it so crisp. But this one is clearly done, nico, time to go to the #3 which is a tough nut to crack - ornaments, barré positions, the appropriate muting of the basses in the first section, you have it all... :D

With this rendition of yours, nico, the Table of Posted records (TPR) becomes:

Sor's Opus 35 recorded pieces as of 21May19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

User avatar
MikeJay
Posts: 516
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Valais, Switzerland

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by MikeJay » Wed May 22, 2019 12:07 pm

Good phrasing, melody voice clear and distinct, melody generally smooth and legato. In the B section, some of the the dotted 1/4 note + 1/8 note figures sounded like they were of equal length. Play the 1/8 note as if it were an accaciaccatura of the following note. That will be much more effective. You ended some of the short phrases in the last line of the B section Forte instead of Piano.
Guilty as charged. Thanks for pointing it out. I was sloppy on some of the dotted eighth/sixteenth combinations and indeed an instance or two of poor phrasing. I'll keep working on it.
I find your tempo of #8 rushed. I also think there is a rhythm problem in the first line of notes.
Right again! Thanks! On listening again, I hear that I was playing an eighth followed by four sixteenths rather than the called-for four sixteenths followed by an eighth. Oops! As for tempo, while I'm probably trying to play it faster than I am able, I think it merits a quick tempo. It is a rondo form. Wim Hoogewerf calls it "a pleasant dancing movement in rondo form à la viennoise" in his post -- viewtopic.php?f=90&t=8605#p77629 -- and it is marked as "allegretto" in the Chantelle book which Wikipedia says was just above Andante in Sor's day. I think I played it at about 100 bpm which qualifies I think. In any case, to me, it sounds like a lively dance and that's how I try to interpret it. I'll see if I can do better...

Thanks again, Mike

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Wed May 22, 2019 8:19 pm

MikeJay wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:07 pm
<snip> and it is marked as "allegretto" in the Chantelle book which Wikipedia says was just above Andante in Sor's day. I think I played it at about 100 bpm which qualifies I think. In any case, to me, it sounds like a lively dance and that's how I try to interpret it. I'll see if I can do better...

Thanks again, Mike
I am just beginning to learn about tempi in Sor's time. My understanding is that in his day, the allegreto (and all such descriptive terms) described the mood and not the speed of the piece. Moreover, in general, tempi were much slower then than now.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

mmcnabb
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:35 am

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by mmcnabb » Thu May 23, 2019 2:48 am

Ok, so I thought I'd go ahead and post my practice results of #5. It's not quite there yet, but I did a first take at recording it and I think it's pretty good except for a flub around 1'15"

Sor Op. 35 No. 5 First Attempt

My practice approach on this one has been to split it up into phrases and really focus on practicing each one individually. Up to now I've not really even played the whole piece in one go. I've practiced individual phrases up to about 100 bpm, but I think I played this around 80 bpm. Please let me know what you think about the tempo. I plan to keep practicing and get this one really polished before I move on.

UPDATE 5/23/2019:

Here's another take that I think is a bit more polished :

Sor Op. 35 No. 5
Last edited by mmcnabb on Fri May 24, 2019 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cordoba C7

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu May 23, 2019 6:51 am

mmcnabb wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:48 am
… my practice results of #5. <snip>
Clean, secure fingering, good tempo, good rhythm, melody stands out clearly, well done. In a piece like this that is fairly uniform in texture, I prefer to give a little more breathing space between phrases. It needs something to produce some variety in the texture. I interpolate scale notes by using a lot of portando. But that is already in the realm of customizing the performance. Very good work.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 973
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu May 23, 2019 9:48 am

mmcnabb wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:48 am
Ok, so I thought I'd go ahead and post my practice results of #5. It's not quite there yet, but I did a first take at recording it and I think it's pretty good except for a flub around 1'15"

Sor Op. 35 No. 5

My practice approach on this one has been to split it up into phrases and really focus on practicing each one individually. Up to now I've not really even played the whole piece in one go. I've practiced individual phrases up to about 100 bpm, but I think I played this around 80 bpm. Please let me know what you think about the tempo. I plan to keep practicing and get this one really polished before I move on.
Uau!... wonderfully played, mmcnabb. And what a tempo... In my rendition I couldn't go beyond the 1/4 = 58 bpm - too many mistakes -, yours is way faster. Well done, you and powderedtoastman have set the bar quite high for this #5, indeed :D. I consider this study the most difficult piece of Opus 35 I've tackled so far... and it's only Novice graded, I wonder what's coming ahead... :shock:.

With this rendition of yours you get a new entry at the Table of Posted Records (TPR):

Sor's Opus 35 recorded pieces as of 23May19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

User avatar
MikeJay
Posts: 516
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Valais, Switzerland

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by MikeJay » Thu May 23, 2019 12:45 pm

Hello Yisrael,
I am just beginning to learn about tempi in Sor's time. My understanding is that in his day, the allegreto (and all such descriptive terms) described the mood and not the speed of the piece. Moreover, in general, tempi were much slower then than now.
Okay. I had a quick look around and found this link: https://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory5.htm. For what it's worth, it mentions that on a 19th century metronome, Allegretto was shown as 100 bpm. Anyway, it would be nice to better understand Sor's intentions on tempo, so keep us informed. I still reserve the right to trust my own ear though (probably a mistake).

powderedtoastman
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:15 am
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by powderedtoastman » Thu May 23, 2019 5:53 pm

mmcnabb wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:48 am
Ok, so I thought I'd go ahead and post my practice results of #5. It's not quite there yet, but I did a first take at recording it and I think it's pretty good except for a flub around 1'15"

Sor Op. 35 No. 5

My practice approach on this one has been to split it up into phrases and really focus on practicing each one individually. Up to now I've not really even played the whole piece in one go. I've practiced individual phrases up to about 100 bpm, but I think I played this around 80 bpm. Please let me know what you think about the tempo. I plan to keep practicing and get this one really polished before I move on.
Nicely played!
My only nit picky thing is that it seems like something was resonating in the background while you were playing, it almost sounds like a low G ringing while the higher notes are going. I wonder if it's a harmonic on the 4th string? If that's the case you may be able to stop it occasionally with the right thumb whenever you play something on the third string.

Other than that you have a very good consistent tempo and sound. Keep it up!

powderedtoastman
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:15 am
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by powderedtoastman » Thu May 23, 2019 5:56 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:19 pm
MikeJay wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:07 pm
<snip> and it is marked as "allegretto" in the Chantelle book which Wikipedia says was just above Andante in Sor's day. I think I played it at about 100 bpm which qualifies I think. In any case, to me, it sounds like a lively dance and that's how I try to interpret it. I'll see if I can do better...

Thanks again, Mike
I am just beginning to learn about tempi in Sor's time. My understanding is that in his day, the allegreto (and all such descriptive terms) described the mood and not the speed of the piece. Moreover, in general, tempi were much slower then than now.
Personally I play number 8 at a tempo of about 120 to 130 bpm for the 8th note... Nothing wrong with letting it be a bit lively I think.

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 973
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu May 23, 2019 7:10 pm

I'm now posting Sor's Opus 35 #9 for you all to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. This time, the guitar used was my Hermanos Camps Master No. 3 (2014), with Knobloch Actives CX 500 Carbon Double Silver, High Tension strings (1 month, 25 days old and 23 hours of effective playing time :D). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below.

Sor’s Opus 35, #9. Learning period: 15Apr19 - 23AMay19 Comments: This piece took me more than a month to memorize and be able to play it straight. The score says Andante (1/4 = 73 - 77 bpm) but I end up playing it faster, at around 110 bpm. I don't think it affects the melody of the piece, on the contrary, but let me know what you think... And, ah!, this time I did not have a metronome stuck in my left ear... :lol:.

Listening to my record, I noticed also that the last note of m.40, an open B is missing (or else I played it so soft that I, myself, can't hear it :lol:). Fortunately, the rhythm is maintained and the first note of m.41, an E, is played in time. The rest seems to be reasonably OK, but please let me know if you find any mistakes. Suggestions for improvements are also most welcome.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 35 #9 (V1).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 35 #9 (V1).mp3

So, now, the Table of Posted Records becomes as follows:

Sor's Opus 35 recorded pieces as of 23May19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members. Mind you, the link to posts provided in this Excel file does not work in the iPhone and in the iPad (being lodged in the Google Drive, Google interferes with the Microsoft Excel file trying to convert it to an equivalent Google spreadsheet... too bad, unfortunately :cry:).

My next self-assignment is to post a sound file of the #6 study, an Intermediate graded one. To tell you the truth, I'm a bit apprehensive... :(
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

mmcnabb
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:35 am

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by mmcnabb » Fri May 24, 2019 2:53 am

Thanks all for your compliments! I just updated the post with a second take, but left the first attempt in place for comparison.
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 9:48 am
Uau!... wonderfully played, mmcnabb. And what a tempo... In my rendition I couldn't go beyond the 1/4 = 58 bpm - too many mistakes -, yours is way faster. Well done, you and powderedtoastman have set the bar quite high for this #5, indeed :D. I consider this study the most difficult piece of Opus 35 I've tackled so far... and it's only Novice graded, I wonder what's coming ahead... :shock:.
Sorry, but there is no way this is a novice piece :lol:
powderedtoastman wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 5:53 pm
Nicely played!
My only nit picky thing is that it seems like something was resonating in the background while you were playing, it almost sounds like a low G ringing while the higher notes are going. I wonder if it's a harmonic on the 4th string? If that's the case you may be able to stop it occasionally with the right thumb whenever you play something on the third string.

Other than that you have a very good consistent tempo and sound. Keep it up!
In all honesty I don't hear what it is you're hearing - but I'm recording in a basement with hard surfaces all around me and there are plenty of environment noises as well. Could be the AC running :lol: Is there any chance you can listen to the updated recording and see if you still hear the resonance?
Cordoba C7

mmcnabb
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:35 am

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by mmcnabb » Fri May 24, 2019 3:03 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 7:10 pm
I'm now posting Sor's Opus 35 #9 for you all to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. This time, the guitar used was my Hermanos Camps Master No. 3 (2014), with Knobloch Actives CX 500 Carbon Double Silver, High Tension strings (1 month, 25 days old and 23 hours of effective playing time :D). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below.

Sor’s Opus 35, #9. Learning period: 15Apr19 - 23AMay19 Comments: This piece took me more than a month to memorize and be able to play it straight. The score says Andante (1/4 = 73 - 77 bpm) but I end up playing it faster, at around 110 bpm. I don't think it affects the melody of the piece, on the contrary, but let me know what you think... And, ah!, this time I did not have a metronome stuck in my left ear... :lol:.

Listening to my record, I noticed also that the last note of m.40, an open B is missing (or else I played it so soft that I, myself, can't hear it :lol:). Fortunately, the rhythm is maintained and the first note of m.41, an E, is played in time. The rest seems to be reasonably OK, but please let me know if you find any mistakes. Suggestions for improvements are also most welcome.
Sounds great Jorge! I think the recorded sound is quite nice and the tempo seems right to me. I haven't tried this one yet, but thinking about this one at a much slower tempo just doesn't seem right. I'll have to wait and see when I get to that one.

If I could venture a criticism it would be with dragging the bass notes. It's an effect that I like on occasion, but like too much pepper it can be overdone :D . Still, I think it's good that you're getting away from the metronome a bit. I'm not a metronome hater like some, but I try not to be a slave to it either.
Cordoba C7

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri May 24, 2019 7:33 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 7:10 pm
I'm now posting Sor's Opus 35 #9 for you all to listen to and comment. <snip>
Hi, Jorge,
Enjoyed your recording. Your timing in the groups of four 1/8 notes is in between 4 equal notes, and 1/4 with a triplet. I have no problem with your rewriting the score to change the 4 1/8 notes to a quarter note + a triplet, but it has to be one or the other, it cannot be in between, because it has no identifiable rhythm. So you need to go in one direction or the other. As you know, I am right now more focused on the overall effect of the piece than on individual notes. The phrases as you played them are long, and therefore require a very strong rhythm to keep them together. I have not yet started working on this piece (I am working on #5–#8 daily), so I do not know if there are any other solutions for preventing the long phrases from becoming monotonous. Your fingering has become more secure, important in this piece where every beat is a new chord. Keep up the good work.
Suggestion for metronome work: practice once or twice with 4 beats to the measure, until you have a solid rhythm.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri May 24, 2019 8:33 am

powderedtoastman wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 5:56 pm
Personally I play number 8 at a tempo of about 120 to 130 bpm for the 8th note... Nothing wrong with letting it be a bit lively I think.
I am currently practicing at 1/8 = 100. That allows for full expression and customization of the score (adding various embellishments to enhance the interest).
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
MikeJay
Posts: 516
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:01 am
Location: Valais, Switzerland

Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by MikeJay » Fri May 24, 2019 9:41 am

Hello Jorge,
I'm now posting Sor's Opus 35 #9 for you all to listen to and comment.
Beautiful! I like the tempo and the feel you give it although I agree with mmcnabb that you over-extend the first (bass) note of the arpeggio. I had a look at the wave form in audacity and I could see that in the second measure (for example), the full 4-note arpeggio takes 1.2 seconds and the first note takes 0.4 seconds, leaving only 0.27 seconds per note for the remaining three notes. To my ear, that just doesn't sound quite right.

After Yisrael's comments on my 35#8, I went to work on it again. I realized that I was actually playing it at about 170 bpm -- not the 100 bpm that I somehow thought. It's what I'm used to listening to from the Palamidessi recording that I have. But I decided to re-record it mainly to fix the rhythm problem that Yisrael pointed out. The new one is at about 126 bpm (if I'm not mistaken :oops: ) -- still a little faster than "standard" allegretto but quite a bit more leisurely than on my first recording. When I tried 100 bpm, it just sounded too slow.
Opus_35_no_8.wma
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “Public Space”