Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

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Adrienus
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Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Adrienus » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:19 pm

Hi everyone!

Im started now an amazing piece by Antonio Jose, the Sonata para Guitara, but on the Score I found, there are a many corrections of the score, made by a hand. I checked it on youtube, and some guys playing this really what the corrections says, some not (exactly like it written on the score). I have the recording of Julian Bream playing it, and he plays sometime something completely different of both...... :shock: :shock:

Did someone already played it, and maybe had the same issiue?

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:43 pm

Which edition do you have?

If you are going to take on such a large project it really makes sense to use the right edition, which is the 2nd Berben edition, recognisable because it's in landscape format. The first Berben edition was based on the composer's first draft, the second edition (in whose creation I had a small part) was based on the final draft. It includes a facsimile of the composer's ms so can check things for yourself.

Re Bream, I gather he took it on himself to change some things according to his own thoughts.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
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Guero
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Guero » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:59 pm

In the score I use there are some pencil written fingerings and positions rather than corrections.
As I usually make up my own fingering I don'care too much about it..

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Arduous
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Arduous » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:16 am

Adrienus wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:19 pm
Hi everyone!

Im started now an amazing piece by Antonio Jose, the Sonata para Guitara, but on the Score I found, there are a many corrections of the score, made by a hand. I checked it on youtube, and some guys playing this really what the corrections says, some not (exactly like it written on the score). I have the recording of Julian Bream playing it, and he plays sometime something completely different of both...... :shock: :shock:

Did someone already played it, and maybe had the same issiue?

Do you not have a teacher?
If not, what's the point in playing this?

Cipher
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Cipher » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:57 am

Arduous wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:16 am
Adrienus wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:19 pm
Hi everyone!

Im started now an amazing piece by Antonio Jose, the Sonata para Guitara, but on the Score I found, there are a many corrections of the score, made by a hand. I checked it on youtube, and some guys playing this really what the corrections says, some not (exactly like it written on the score). I have the recording of Julian Bream playing it, and he plays sometime something completely different of both...... :shock: :shock:

Did someone already played it, and maybe had the same issiue?

Do you not have a teacher?
If not, what's the point in playing this?
What kind of audacious equation is that? Do you know anything about Adrienus' playing level to ask such question. Sheeesh... :shock:

Here's a few of his videos, I think he's on a good enough level to learn and play the Jose Sonata by himself at this point, no teacher needed. He was merely trying to figure out which editions are out there and if there are any official corrections to the score.






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John Oster
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by John Oster » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:28 am

Adrienus wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:19 pm
Hi everyone!

Im started now an amazing piece by Antonio Jose, the Sonata para Guitara, but on the Score I found, there are a many corrections of the score, made by a hand. I checked it on youtube, and some guys playing this really what the corrections says, some not (exactly like it written on the score). I have the recording of Julian Bream playing it, and he plays sometime something completely different of both...... :shock: :shock:

Did someone already played it, and maybe had the same issiue?
I have that same version. Whoever scanned it made some notes changes. On page 15 in the 5th system from the top in the last measure, he as revoiced the chord. Then in the first measure of the 6th system he has changed the bass note from E (I think) to a G. Then on page 18 in the second system 4th measure, it looks as if he changed the F natural to F sharp, and in the third system he has added a note to the first chord in the the first four measures. I don't know if all of these are corrections or he just thought they sounded better!
Kolya Panhuyzen 2012 cedar/Br

Adrienus
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Adrienus » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:09 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:43 pm
Which edition do you have?

If you are going to take on such a large project it really makes sense to use the right edition, which is the 2nd Berben edition, recognisable because it's in landscape format. The first Berben edition was based on the composer's first draft, the second edition (in whose creation I had a small part) was based on the final draft. It includes a facsimile of the composer's ms so can check things for yourself.

Re Bream, I gather he took it on himself to change some things according to his own thoughts.
I see.. Interesting.. didn't know about the Berben editions and the composers's drafts :)

It is a Angelo Gilardino and Juan Jose Saenz Gallego ( 1989/90) revision.

Adrienus
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Adrienus » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:10 am

Guero wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:59 pm
In the score I use there are some pencil written fingerings and positions rather than corrections.
As I usually make up my own fingering I don'care too much about it..
No no, there are not only fingerings and positions. There was a few score corrections as well

Adrienus
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Adrienus » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:21 am

Arduous wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:16 am
Adrienus wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:19 pm
Hi everyone!

Im started now an amazing piece by Antonio Jose, the Sonata para Guitara, but on the Score I found, there are a many corrections of the score, made by a hand. I checked it on youtube, and some guys playing this really what the corrections says, some not (exactly like it written on the score). I have the recording of Julian Bream playing it, and he plays sometime something completely different of both...... :shock: :shock:

Did someone already played it, and maybe had the same issiue?

Do you not have a teacher?
If not, what's the point in playing this?
I played already the last Part of it (Final) during my studium before 5-6 years. Have some video on Youtube of it. Now I don't really like that my performance, and now I'm playing it completely different. But you know, without a teacher you can keep learning a new pieces :)

Guero
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Guero » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:33 am

Adrienus wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:10 am
Guero wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:59 pm
In the score I use there are some pencil written fingerings and positions rather than corrections.
As I usually make up my own fingering I don'care too much about it..
No no, there are not only fingerings and positions. There was a few score corrections as well
Yes, you're right. I had another closer look at it and counted about 6-7 corrections apart from the fingering stuff. (Berben 1990)

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:32 pm

Guero wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:33 am
Adrienus wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:10 am
Guero wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:59 pm
In the score I use there are some pencil written fingerings and positions rather than corrections.
As I usually make up my own fingering I don'care too much about it..
No no, there are not only fingerings and positions. There was a few score corrections as well
Yes, you're right. I had another closer look at it and counted about 6-7 corrections apart from the fingering stuff. (Berben 1990)
You are discussing the original, first edition as mentioned in my post, above. It may not be connected but there are illegal copies of that edition available online that have pencil marks, I strongly suggest you do not fall for the false economy of learning the piece from such a source if that is where it has come from.
I would only add that my connection with the 2nd edition ceased on its publication.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
Simon Ambridge 'Hauser' (2018)

Adrienus
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Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:40 am

Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Adrienus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:53 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:32 pm
Guero wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:33 am
Adrienus wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:10 am


No no, there are not only fingerings and positions. There was a few score corrections as well
Yes, you're right. I had another closer look at it and counted about 6-7 corrections apart from the fingering stuff. (Berben 1990)
You are discussing the original, first edition as mentioned in my post, above. It may not be connected but there are illegal copies of that edition available online that have pencil marks, I strongly suggest you do not fall for the false economy of learning the piece from such a source if that is where it has come from.
I would only add that my connection with the 2nd edition ceased on its publication.
I tryed to find that edition, that you mean, but have found only this one:
https://www.mynotenshop.de/de/category/ ... *000229754

ben etow
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by ben etow » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:20 pm

Yes, those two versions are a mess. I only got the second version years after reading the other and frankly I don't remember the choices I made after reading both (including both fac simile). Sometimes you need to choose between # or natural and so on. And sometimes you need to cut one note from a chord...
But it is so rewarding to play it one day...

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:03 pm

Adrienus wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:53 am
I tryed to find that edition, that you mean, but have found only this one:
https://www.my...
Yes that is the 2nd edition. But you'll need to edit the link out as is against forum rules to link to a commercial site like that.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
Simon Ambridge 'Hauser' (2018)

Guero
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Re: Antonio Joses "Sonata para Guitarra"

Post by Guero » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:19 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:32 pm
It may not be connected but there are illegal copies of that edition available online that have pencil marks
That is quite an interesting field! As far as I was able to get into it there should be no copyright problem with the Berben 1990.
Antonio José died in 1936, over 70 years ago, and the Berben edition is older than 25 years. So at least in Germany it's not illegal to copy this special edition. (thus download it)
As for other countries I don't know the exact regulations. It seems that in most countries after 70 years after the death of the author his work passes into the public domain. Only the poor Mexicans have to wait 100 years :(

But public domain is not all! Then there are the paragraphs concerning (first) publications and editions etc. I think this is the part where it is getting a bit complex..
Isn't there a thread about this topic? Probably more relevant to orchestras and ensembles, music schools and teachers.
Greetings, Güero.

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