664 scale length

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edcat7
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by edcat7 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:18 am

Philosopherguy wrote:I would have loved to buy the Yamaha GC20D for sale right now. If I just hadn't have purchased another guitar, I would have! But given that I like my wife, I decided against it. I don't think the scale will be a huge issue for you with those hands. My reach is 8.5 inches and I play a couple 658mm scale guitars with no issues. The reach is barely noticeable. In first position you notice it a little. But, not too much. Just think that back in the 60's and 70's a lot more people were playing on the longer scales and evolution has not shrunk our hands in the last 30 or 40 years.

I think people are making far too much of a big deal over that book that says what scale guitar you should play. If you play it enough you will get used to it! Everyone isn't burning their Ramirez 1A's because a book says they aren't supposed to play that scale! The Yamaha nut will likely be 52mm, so it won't be the monster 54mm. But, even that you can get used to if you play it enough. It may feel awkward at first, but your muscles will get used to the positioning and the difference. It was noticeable to me for a while and my muscles had that slight irritated burning sensation (just take it easy and don't overdo it at first). The more I played the longer scales it just became normal. If I am playing a song with crazy stretches I can always switch over to something 650mm. As of yet, I have not had to do that.

However, the wife is a different story! You are on your own there! hahaha..
As an aside:
Yes the guitar in question is a Yamaha GC20D. I noticed you have a GC-3 and I recently got a GC-5m. It's strung up with Savarez Cantiga with a carbon G, I'll probably try some Royal Classics Sonata basses at some point. And it sounds good.

But I wanted to try some D'Addario EJ45FF and so put them on my Manuel Rodriguez model C which I want to sell. I was most surprised: to my ears the model C with carbon strings sound slightly better than my Yamaha with nylon strings.

So the question is: is the Yamaha GC20d significantly better than my GC-5 or it is just hype?
Remember Anthony Weller, please help. Contact myself or Aaron Green for details.

edcat7
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Location: Barnet, London

Re: 664 scale length

Post by edcat7 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:34 am

HN Lim, I knew you would be interested and as a fellow Chinese guy I'm relatively tall at 5'9.5" ( I know, I know 0.5" doesn't matter but I was measured at hospital recently).

It did occur to me that if you could play a 664mm then I would have no problems either. But now I know your hands are the same size as mine. Since we both know the VAT and custom charges are prohibitive all we can do is be very happy for the eventual guardian of Alan's 20D.

Is wanting something better than having it? From experience I think so.

Ed
Remember Anthony Weller, please help. Contact myself or Aaron Green for details.

Philosopherguy
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by Philosopherguy » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:35 am

Well, judging a guitar against another guitar is a difficult endeavor. The GC20D is supposed to be the better guitar over the GC5. Each guitar is different though. It may be a much better guitar! It certainly looks nicer than the lower models! It may also be comparable in sound. I am doubting it would be worse. However, you never know. But, a GC20D that hasn't been abused over the years from the 70's is quite a special find! But, I know what you are saying. It is hard to tell. I love the sound of my GC3 and I don't think its any worse than any of the other GC series I have played, even though its supposed to be the lower model of the time. It is signed by the luthier and plays quite nice with a solid Ezo top and solid Indian rosewood back and sides. The only issue I had when I bought it was that the frets had worn down. But, the sign of a good instrument is that it has been played and not sat around in the basement. So, you are very likely to get some wear. I just had them redone and all was well. But, I do know that back in the 70's a number of artists were concertizing with GC20D guitars, a testament to their quality. Purely on a collectors level, you can't go wrong with the GC20D. On a sound level, its hard to say. As with all purchasing of guitars online, its just rolling the dice and hoping it comes up with your number instead of rolling out!

I use either D'Addario EJ45's or Augustine Blacks for the most part. I don't tend to experiment with strings much. They both sound nice on the GC3. I'm not always overly adventurous with strings.
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

alfonso

Re: 664 scale length

Post by alfonso » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:08 am

I played and performed with a 662mm 1973 Yamaha GC-15D for many years and was very satisfied with it on the grounds of both looks and sound. It was great with 'romantic' repertoire.

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petermc61
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by petermc61 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:18 am

I have a 1973 Paulino Bernabe which is 658mm and I think this is one of my easiest to play instruments even though I have smallish hands for a guy. It's action is sensibly low and it is just super soft under both hands. All up, a fantastic guitar.

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HNLim
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by HNLim » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:11 pm

edcat7 wrote:
So the question is: is the Yamaha GC20d significantly better than my GC-5 or it is just hype?
From my many years of experience and having played many Yamaha GC, I can tell you that it is not just hype. Firstly the the finishing especially the wood marquetry is significant. The tuning machine on the GC20 uses 39mm spacing rollers and the GG5 uses 35mm. The quality is different. Based on my experience with my 1978 GC30A when compared to lower range GC, there are significant differences. The volume is much louder. The sustain is much longer. The tone especiallyt he treble is much clearer. Yamaha has an even piano sounding voice. This is especially for the higher end range.

I used to own a 2011 GC41. When I bought the GC30A (predecessor to the GC70 & GC82). The difference in sound between then are very significant.
Last edited by HNLim on Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bear
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by bear » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:26 pm

dandan wrote:According to those charts you should be playing a 656. By the way there's a similar GC20m on the bay for $7000. Ok, its overpriced but might go for 4-5.
I've seen the charts, but what is not often mentioned is flexibility. A person might have the right scale for their hand size but not have the flexibility to make the stretch.


The configuration of the neck must also be considered. The profile type is not enough. I have a 660 that that I play, a 655 that is too difficult.
I have a couple of Rodriguez 650x52 that are easier to play than my Ramirez 650x52. All have the same profile.
I think it's a good idea to try out a couple of 664's. Trying a 664 by the maker that you want is ideal.
2013 Jeff Medlin '37 Hauser 640mm sp
2006 Michele Della Giustina Concert 10 string 650mm ce
2005 Jose Ramirez 4E 650mm ce
2005 Manuel Rodriguez Model C3F 650mm sp
2003 Manuel Rodriguez Model D 650mm ce

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singularity
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by singularity » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:59 pm

I really never understood why so much time is spent arguing about differences in scale length of 650 VS 660 or 664 mm guitars. Consider this, the difference between 650 mm and 664 mm scale length between 1st and 5th fret is 2.8 mm, little less than an eight of an inch. If this difference is what makes it difficult to play then I would argue that 650 mm is barely playable and should consider going to 640 mm or less maybe.

I would also argue that technique matters, there's plenty of examples of players with small hands making "impossible" stretches. Take Segovia for example, sausage fingers, small hands -->amazing playing.

As always, try it if possible and make decision based on ALL factors, not just the name/ brand.

My 0.02 $

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HNLim
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by HNLim » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:13 pm

singularity wrote:As always, try it if possible and make decision based on ALL factors, not just the name/ brand.

My 0.02 $
Most people do not have the luxury of trying out the guitar. The name/brand becomes very critical when you buy without trying it.

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dng
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by dng » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:25 pm

I don't think scale length (664 vs 650) matters much

the thickness and the width of neck are more important to consider..
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dandan
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by dandan » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:43 pm

singularity wrote:I really never understood why so much time is spent arguing about differences in scale length of 650 VS 660 or 664 mm guitars. Consider this, the difference between 650 mm and 664 mm scale length between 1st and 5th fret is 2.8 mm, little less than an eight of an inch. If this difference is what makes it difficult to play then I would argue that 650 mm is barely playable and should consider going to 640 mm or less maybe.

I would also argue that technique matters, there's plenty of examples of players with small hands making "impossible" stretches. Take Segovia for example, sausage fingers, small hands -->amazing playing.

As always, try it if possible and make decision based on ALL factors, not just the name/ brand.

My 0.02 $
You think Segovia had small hands? Yours must be massive!
1954 Makumei Kano
1969 Rokutaro Nakade A9
1966 Sakazo Nakade model D
1977 Aria AG80 (Masaru Takeiri)

dandan
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by dandan » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:46 pm

edcat7 wrote:
Philosopherguy wrote:I would have loved to buy the Yamaha GC20D for sale right now. If I just hadn't have purchased another guitar, I would have! But given that I like my wife, I decided against it. I don't think the scale will be a huge issue for you with those hands. My reach is 8.5 inches and I play a couple 658mm scale guitars with no issues. The reach is barely noticeable. In first position you notice it a little. But, not too much. Just think that back in the 60's and 70's a lot more people were playing on the longer scales and evolution has not shrunk our hands in the last 30 or 40 years.

I think people are making far too much of a big deal over that book that says what scale guitar you should play. If you play it enough you will get used to it! Everyone isn't burning their Ramirez 1A's because a book says they aren't supposed to play that scale! The Yamaha nut will likely be 52mm, so it won't be the monster 54mm. But, even that you can get used to if you play it enough. It may feel awkward at first, but your muscles will get used to the positioning and the difference. It was noticeable to me for a while and my muscles had that slight irritated burning sensation (just take it easy and don't overdo it at first). The more I played the longer scales it just became normal. If I am playing a song with crazy stretches I can always switch over to something 650mm. As of yet, I have not had to do that.

However, the wife is a different story! You are on your own there! hahaha..
As an aside:
Yes the guitar in question is a Yamaha GC20D. I noticed you have a GC-3 and I recently got a GC-5m. It's strung up with Savarez Cantiga with a carbon G, I'll probably try some Royal Classics Sonata basses at some point. And it sounds good.

But I wanted to try some D'Addario EJ45FF and so put them on my Manuel Rodriguez model C which I want to sell. I was most surprised: to my ears the model C with carbon strings sound slightly better than my Yamaha with nylon strings.

So the question is: is the Yamaha GC20d significantly better than my GC-5 or it is just hype?
Yes, it is better, much better. The GC5 is probably very nice, but if this was a Kohno 20, you wouldn't ask, and this is probably a better guitar.
1954 Makumei Kano
1969 Rokutaro Nakade A9
1966 Sakazo Nakade model D
1977 Aria AG80 (Masaru Takeiri)

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singularity
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by singularity » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:13 pm

HNLim wrote: Most people do not have the luxury of trying out the guitar.
I don't know that is a fact, it must be in your case though. Brand affinity is popular marketing methodology and it works on most consumers. At any rate, as I stated earlier try it IF POSIBLE. If the name brand is what you're after, then that's what you buy.
You think Segovia had small hands? Yours must be massive!
Massive? Nooo, judge for yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qt9Mq6sZos

s

waikuentsui
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by waikuentsui » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:44 pm

singularity wrote:Massive? Nooo, judge for yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qt9Mq6sZos
s
I cannot judge hand size on video, but I can judge good music.
Very nice playing, singularity.
Thank you for the music.
:bravo:

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HNLim
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Re: 664 scale length

Post by HNLim » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:37 pm

I think it is quite common in the 60's &.70's for 665 mm Japanese guitars to use 39 mm spacing rollers for the tuning machine. Both my 1974 S.Yairi 950 & 1978 Yamaha GC30A have 665 mm scale length and 39 mm roller spacing.

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