Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

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Montgomery
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by Montgomery » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:11 pm

Ouch!!! This is a painful read. I feel for both the buyer and seller (now that he has been named). That said, I would have requested a refund, the neck looks pretty bad to me.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by rojarosguitar » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:22 pm

If a luthier sends out a guitar that is so sub-standard as it seems, I would 't put much hope into the prospects of a 'rapair'an absurd idea for a new guitar anyway. i cant't see why he wouldn't do things properly in the first place and then suddenly rise to the task. My conclusion would be, he is not up to the task. He then fairly should have said "l'm new in the business and the guitar will have flaws, that's why I'll sell it to you dor a very special price." Then you would have had a fair chance to decide for yourself to follow through or not.

Sorry, didn't read through the whole thread. I'm glad you worked a solution. I think the reputation of this maker is quite damaged now... Ho sad, this whole thing...
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dta721
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by dta721 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:30 pm

edcat7 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:42 am
Once the op gets his money back I think it would be a good idea to delete the whole thread. Mods please consider.
What are the reasons to effectively sweep this under the rug?

As a potential buyer from respected luthiers in this forum, I'd like to see some learned lesson(s) from this transaction in order to improve this process. E.g.

- what would be a simple yet effective terms and conditions (T&Cs) for such contract to get one build?
- what constitute "scope creep", requirement changes when work already started, as alleged in a post?
- Is there an inspection report on the deliverable to be acceptable for both parties? If so, what is it?

If there is anything to learn about this fiasco, I'd say it's communication between all, among the buyer and seller, and to general members of this forum. Thus it needs to be transparent, not deleted but archived.

rpavich
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by rpavich » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:34 pm

dta721 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:30 pm
edcat7 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:42 am
Once the op gets his money back I think it would be a good idea to delete the whole thread. Mods please consider.
What are the reasons to effectively sweep this under the rug?

As a potential buyer from respected luthiers in this forum, I'd like to see some learned lesson(s) from this transaction in order to improve this process. E.g.

- what would be a simple yet effective terms and conditions (T&Cs) for such contract to get one build?
- what constitute "scope creep", requirement changes when work already started, as alleged in a post?
- Is there an inspection report on the deliverable to be acceptable for both parties? If so, what is it?

If there is anything to learn about this fiasco, I'd say it's communication between all, among the buyer and seller, and to general members of this forum. Thus it needs to be transparent, not deleted but archived.
Yes! For all of the above reasons.

If I was scouting Luthiers I’d want all of the data and not just one side of it, that’s just doing due diligence before purchasing.
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KenO
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by KenO » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:47 pm

Brutal...
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Justfun
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by Justfun » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:49 pm

Before my guitar was sent by Mr. Reysnoso I had to wait a couple of days extra because he found a light scratcht on one of the sides. He sent me a few pictures to prove it; fixed the scratch and I received my guitar 100 % in mint conditions.

Fred
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by Adrian Allan » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:50 pm

In total agreement that this was very painful.

It is worth remembering what a small community the CG world is. I posted a favourable review of a guitar a few months back, and she has had loads of requests and a small waiting list on the back of that.

For this reason, the client needs to kept sweet - even over something minor, the luthier must be prepared to be accommodating even if he or she may on occasion be making a tiny adjustment to gritted teeth. Over something major like this, not being accommodating has probably now cost the luthier all the trade that might be generated by this website.

In contrast, the luthier that I commissioned recently made a guitar that for acoustic reasons (only) she was not 100% happy with, so withheld the guitar and offered the client either his money back or a little longer wait as she started again from scratch. Reputation is everything, and it takes a while to build it up, but can be lost in the blink of an eye.
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Justfun
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by Justfun » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:54 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:50 pm
In total agreement that this was very painful.

It is worth remembering what a small community the CG world is. I posted a favourable review of a guitar a few months back, and she has had loads of requests and a small waiting list on the back of that.

For this reason, the client needs to kept sweet - even over something minor, the luthier must be prepared to be accommodating even if he or she may occasion be making a tiny adjustment to gritted teeth. Over something major like this, not being accommodating has probably now cost the luthier all the trade that might be generated by the website.

In contrast, the luthier that I commissioned recently made a guitar that for acoustic reasons (only) she was not 100% happy with, so withheld the guitar and offered the client either his money back or a little longer wait as she started again from scratch. Reputation is everything, and it takes a while to build it up, but can be lost in the blink of an eye.
Yes Reputation is everything but something good must come out from this experience for both?

Fred
Richard Reynoso, Cypress \ Spruce 2016
Lozano Spruce 2001
Inofuentes 1997

DaveLeeNC
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by DaveLeeNC » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:02 pm

It is interesting that a user posted that he/she had commissioned a guitar from this builder just this Jan (although the poster seems to not be active on this forum).

viewtopic.php?f=107&t=117733&p=1252606& ... n#p1252606

And many of this builder's guitars have been bought and sold here without known issues. I don't see how this could have happened, but here we are.

dave
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madrilla
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by madrilla » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:42 pm

DaveLeeNC wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:02 pm

And many of this builder's guitars have been bought and sold here without known issues. I don't see how this could have happened, but here we are.
... or perhaps with unknown issues. I can imagine those customers taking a long look at their guitars now. And the ones with orders having second thoughts.

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Beowulf
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by Beowulf » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:12 pm

djqsrv wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:30 pm
So the luthier is telling me he will not honor his money back guarantee.

"1. I repair the fret board, add the extra holes to the bridge and refinish the entire guitar in gloss. In addition, I refund you $500 as a discount, and pay for shipping and insurance both ways.
2. You return the guitar, I refund you 50%, and I refund you another 25% once I have found a buyer and sold it."

I trust that I an rely on your reasonable consideration.”
Actually, the luthier is honouring his money back guarantee, given that his site explicitly states that 50% is a non-refundable deposit.
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dta721
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by dta721 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:03 pm

Beowulf wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:12 pm
djqsrv wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:30 pm
So the luthier is telling me he will not honor his money back guarantee.

"1. I repair the fret board, add the extra holes to the bridge and refinish the entire guitar in gloss. In addition, I refund you $500 as a discount, and pay for shipping and insurance both ways.
2. You return the guitar, I refund you 50%, and I refund you another 25% once I have found a buyer and sold it."

I trust that I an rely on your reasonable consideration.”
Actually, the luthier is honouring his money back guarantee, given that his site explicitly states that 50% is a non-refundable deposit.
My interpretation is that under normal circumstances, such as when the buyer wants to break the contract for no good reasons, e.g. changing his mind, he'll lose his deposit! There is a dispute about quality and workmanship as I understand. Thus, specific "inspection acceptance checklist" when mutually agreed, would kick in to determine who breaks the contract, as an example in my previous post. If the seller breaks the contract in delivering an unacceptable quality instrument, the buyer is entitled to have his deposit returned.

rpavich
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by rpavich » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:23 pm

dta721 wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:03 pm
Beowulf wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:12 pm
djqsrv wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:30 pm
So the luthier is telling me he will not honor his money back guarantee.

"1. I repair the fret board, add the extra holes to the bridge and refinish the entire guitar in gloss. In addition, I refund you $500 as a discount, and pay for shipping and insurance both ways.
2. You return the guitar, I refund you 50%, and I refund you another 25% once I have found a buyer and sold it."

I trust that I an rely on your reasonable consideration.”
Actually, the luthier is honouring his money back guarantee, given that his site explicitly states that 50% is a non-refundable deposit.
My interpretation is that under normal circumstances, such as when the buyer wants to break the contract for no good reasons, e.g. changing his mind, he'll lose his deposit! There is a dispute about quality and workmanship as I understand. Thus, specific "inspection acceptance checklist" when mutually agreed, would kick in to determine who breaks the contract, as an example in my previous post. If the seller breaks the contract in delivering an unacceptable quality instrument, the buyer is entitled to have his deposit returned.
That would seem to be a no brainer.

The buyer paid for a new guitar without heinous flaws.

The neck hump is a heinous flaw.

The buyer is entitled to get his money back without penalty. He did nothing wrong.


That's how the system normally works when buying goods of any kind.
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Beowulf
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by Beowulf » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:41 pm

I agree that flaws are a different matter...I was simply noting that the luthier was honouring his stated money back guarantee and then some. In the interests of fairness...email and forum communications are prone to misinterpretation, particularly when the parties concerned do not know each other well.
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

rpavich
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Re: Need advice on a just received luthier guitar.

Post by rpavich » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:49 pm

Beowulf wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:41 pm
I agree that flaws are a different matter...I was simply noting that the luthier was honouring his stated money back guarantee and then some. In the interests of fairness...email and forum communications are prone to misinterpretation, particularly when the parties concerned do not know each other well.
You'd think that the money back guarantee wouldn't apply if he didn't deliver a usable product.

In any case, it appears to be getting worked out.

On to the next crisis! :)
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