The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

safesphere
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The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by safesphere » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:41 pm

I am looking for a guitar with a nice sound like Ramirez 1A, but my budget is at the level of Ramirez 4NE ($2,500 - $3,000 US). I would appreciate any insight on the best ways to go.

1. I like the sound of Ramirez 1A (a.k.a. Traditional), I think it's mesmerizing. What are my options for under $3,000 to get as close to its sound as possible? (It does not have to be Ramirez.) I understand I could get a used 1A in a "good" condition for around this much, but I've no experience of buying a used guitar. There's nothing here local in Kansas City and paying thousands online without inspection seems scary.

2. Who actually makes the 4NE? I understand, this model is outsourced to some factory where this guitar may (or may not) be hand made by the factory luthier(s). Does anyone know which factory or if there is a name of the actual luthier on the label or any other details on this model?

simonm
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by simonm » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:52 pm

I can't be of any direct help as I don't have experience of Ramirez guitars and I am not in the US. (although I have heard about the stuffed horse in Lawrence :-))

As you noted the best bang for buck is used. One option would be to contact a reputable dealer and see what they have to offer. The best dealers are interested in keeping you happy so that you will come back to them again so if you have to buy sight unseen that is a good way to go. You could also watch the ads here over a period of time and see what might turn up. Usually the prices tend to be pretty good.

Laudiesdad69
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:22 am

There has been serious speculation on who actually makes Ramirez’ Estudio guitars. I’ve heard many different companies mentioned. Some say the 4NE is made by Alhambra, and that the R4 is made by Raimundo. I’ve also heard Esteve and Taurus mentioned. I think the truth is that nobody really knows. They are made to spec by some other companies, but nobody seems to have proof of anything.

I have a 4NE and I bought it new a year ago for $2199. I played it against a 1A from 1967. The scale is shorter than the 1A. 650vs 664. It had a better sound, but the 1A was louder. The 4NE was more playable, had better action thanks to no slanted fretboard. I can’t handle stretches on the 664mm scale. The nut wasn’t as wide (52mm vs 54mm on the 1A).

My 4NE is the best out of all the Ramirez I’ve had. I had a George Harrison, 2NE, 2E, 125 anyo, and R4. The 4NE is the only one I have left.

Of the people on the forum that have 4NE, and 4E, I’ve never heard anybody say anything bad about them.

With a budget of $3000, the choices are almost limitless, should you decide to go the “other than Ramirez” route. Please let us know what you decide.

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ameriken
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by ameriken » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:55 am

I don't have experience with the Ramirez line either but I did just get an Amalio Burguet 1A (Valencia, Spain) in your price range (Dulcet Guitars), though mine is a spruce. It comes in a cedar top too. But I can't tell you how it compares to a Ramirez.

I saw both a Ramirez 1A and a 4NE on the site, he might be able to tell you more about it.
Amalio Burguet 1A Spruce
Takamine C-132S

Philosopherguy
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by Philosopherguy » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:25 am

I love my 4NE. I think it is a great guitar. It does have that big and bold classic Ramirez tone in which the trebles ring like a bell and the bass strings growl a little, which I personally love. I also have a very nice specimen of a 130 Anos that has a great classic Ramirez tone.

If you want that classic Ramirez tone, both of those guitars may fit the bill. If you want cedar, I recommend the 4NE. If you want spruce, then go with the 130Anos.

Are they a 1A? Well, no. But, I would say that both of my guitars sound better than some 1A's I have heard. They very likely aren't better than others. But, in total, for the price I paid, they are exceptional guitars.

That being said, there are plenty of Ramirez 1A copy guitars out there, especially from the 70's and 80's. If you don't want a used guitar and have your heart set on a new guitar, go and try a few 4NE's and Guitarra Del Tiempo's (new 130Anos) and one of them is likely to be the guitar sound you want.

Just my opinion.
Martin
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

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souldier
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by souldier » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:57 pm

safesphere wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:41 pm
I am looking for a guitar with a nice sound like Ramirez 1A, but my budget is at the level of Ramirez 4NE ($2,500 - $3,000 US). I would appreciate any insight on the best ways to go.

1. I like the sound of Ramirez 1A (a.k.a. Traditional), I think it's mesmerizing. What are my options for under $3,000 to get as close to its sound as possible? (It does not have to be Ramirez.) I understand I could get a used 1A in a "good" condition for around this much, but I've no experience of buying a used guitar. There's nothing here local in Kansas City and paying thousands online without inspection seems scary.

2. Who actually makes the 4NE? I understand, this model is outsourced to some factory where this guitar may (or may not) be hand made by the factory luthier(s). Does anyone know which factory or if there is a name of the actual luthier on the label or any other details on this model?
1. For under 3000 you can easily find a Ramirez copy made by some good Japanese luthiers from the 60's/70's. I've played several and they honestly sound better than the Ramirez 1a I played. Doing a bit of research on this forum could steer you in the right direction. Spronev is one such individual who has bought and sold several of these.
In regards to actual 1a's, I feel that they can be quite inconsistent. Some are amazing, while a lot are mediocre. I tried a beautiful looking Cedar/Brazilian 1a from the 70's, and its tone was quite disappointing. I wouldn't risk buying an actual 1a if I didn't get to try it in person first. I think the 1a has been over glorified, leading to this mystical idea that they are the epitome of the classical guitar.

2. The 4NE is a great guitar. If that is within your budget, I'd probably just get that as there is less risk involved. I've played a 4NE next to a Ramirez 1a and easily preferred the 4NE.
"Success grants its rewards to a few, but is the dream of the multitudes.
Excellence is available to all, but is accepted only by a few." - Christopher Parkening

MessyTendon
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by MessyTendon » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:05 pm

Also check out pics so guitars...they are lovely

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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by MessyTendon » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:07 pm

I mean picado...darn mobile auto correct

khayes
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by khayes » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:17 pm

SInce you like the 1A sound why not spring for the real thing? I have a very nice '77 1A that I bought in 1980. PM me if you might be interested. I can make you a very attractive deal and furnish sound samples of my guitar.
Ken

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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by vesa » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:00 am

Only 1A sounds like a 1A.
During the years I have tried something like 50 - 80 1A's
and they are very inconsistent in quality.
All of them are quite hard to play but if you get one with the ¨Sound¨
it evens the things up so that you feel like you are not struggling
in vain because the sound is so lovely.
Parkening said something like: Out of 100 you have 10 good ones
and out of those 10 you have 1 jewel.
They are not that expensive and are very easy to find,
I would go for the real thing.
Vesa Kuokkanen

Antonio Marin nr. 813 1995 (Bouchet)
Vesa Kuokkanen 2016

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David Norton
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by David Norton » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:50 pm

I have a 2002/650 Kenny Hill "Madrid", pattern after a 1967/664 Ramirez 1a. I had a chance to compare it directly to a 1980/664, 1988/664, and 1999/650 1a. The Madrid had probably 80% of the 1988 and 1999's sound and power, for $6500 less. The Madrid also held its own against a 2006/650 Teodoro Perez "Concierto" cedar top. It didn't compare to the 1980 1a nearly as well, but in fairness: that particular 1980 guitar is a fantastic guitar to start with. Very hard to play (for me), but the owner is a BIG man who handles the large size and high action effortlessly.
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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:23 pm

As a former owner of Kenny Hill Madrid 2002 year, instrument No 2019, I have been waiting until such guitar will be mentioned in this thread. I didn't have a chance of comparing my Madrid to Ramirez 1A but it keeps well comparison to Ramirez Estudio models - 4NE, 4R, 130 Anos. Many musicians that I know preferred my Madrid in comparison to mentioned Estudio guitars.
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.
Antonio Picado, model 62, 2018, Cedar/Madagascar Palosanto. Scale 640 mm. Doble Tapa.

celestemcc
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by celestemcc » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:30 pm

Only 1A sounds like a 1A.
During the years I have tried something like 50 - 80 1A's
and they are very inconsistent in quality.
All of them are quite hard to play but if you get one with the ¨Sound¨
it evens the things up so that you feel like you are not struggling
in vain because the sound is so lovely.
Parkening said something like: Out of 100 you have 10 good ones
and out of those 10 you have 1 jewel.
They are not that expensive and are very easy to find,
I would go for the real thing.
This. Yes! Never get one that you haven't played, first off for The Sound and equally important that they're hard to play for some people. You won't know till you try. But it's the way to go, get the real thing if you can.
2015 Connor spruce/Indian rosewood
1978 Ramirez 1a cedar

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David Norton
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by David Norton » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:29 pm

David Norton wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:50 pm
that particular 1980 guitar is a fantastic guitar to start with. Very hard to play (for me), but the owner is a BIG man who handles the large size and high action effortlessly.
Here's a photo of the 1980 and its large-handed owner:
1980 Ram.jpg
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Last edited by David Norton on Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gary Macleod

Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by Gary Macleod » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:34 pm

I played a concert with a borrowed 1a many years ago, it was ok but nothing special. The guitar that sounded very like it , if not better , was my 4e Ramirez.
I now play a Stephen Hill cedar lattice which makes any Ramirez I’ve played sound like a student guitar.

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