The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

safesphere
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by safesphere » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:27 am

Thanks everyone, your comments are incredibly helpful and very much appreciated! Please keep them coming. Also, let me ask it this way. If all your guitars were taken away and you were given $3,000 for one guitar (brand new only), which would you buy?

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petermc61
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by petermc61 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:07 am

safesphere wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:27 am
Thanks everyone, your comments are incredibly helpful and very much appreciated! Please keep them coming. Also, let me ask it this way. If all your guitars were taken away and you were given $3,000 for one guitar (brand new only), which would you buy?
I wouldn’t, one two counts. Firstly, I’d buy second hand. I’d ghat is absolutely ruled out then I’d save a bit more and commission a guitar from one of our luthiers here eg Chris Sobel, Jason Wolverton

Laudiesdad69
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:25 am

There’s a 1a on the bay right now for $3300. That’s just a little more than a 4NE would go for new, although they don’t make the 4NE anymore. Actually there is another one on there with a starting bid of $3200. You could get the real thing quite reasonably. One is a 1966.

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zavaletas
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by zavaletas » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:30 pm

Wolfgang Jellinghaus is making a Model Espagna--based on Jose Ramirez 1a. This is not a factory guitar, but handmade. He works in a team with
four other luthiers. I have had him make a 1912 Manuel Ramirez copy which is french polished, uses master grade woods, and is flawless-- should be able to get one for under $3000.

http://milestones.pc-media.de/index.php ... la-espagna
James, Zavaleta's La Casa de Guitarras

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David Norton
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by David Norton » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:52 pm

zavaletas wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:30 pm
Wolfgang Jellinghaus is making a Model Espagna--based on Jose Ramirez 1a. This is not a factory guitar, but handmade. He works in a team with
four other luthiers. I have had him make a 1912 Manuel Ramirez copy which is french polished, uses master grade woods, and is flawless-- should be able to get one for under $3000.
James, I just looked through this catalog. A nice variety of replica instruments being offered here.
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT

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spronev
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by spronev » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:25 am

souldier wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:57 pm
safesphere wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:41 pm
I am looking for a guitar with a nice sound like Ramirez 1A, but my budget is at the level of Ramirez 4NE ($2,500 - $3,000 US). I would appreciate any insight on the best ways to go.

1. I like the sound of Ramirez 1A (a.k.a. Traditional), I think it's mesmerizing. What are my options for under $3,000 to get as close to its sound as possible? (It does not have to be Ramirez.) I understand I could get a used 1A in a "good" condition for around this much, but I've no experience of buying a used guitar. There's nothing here local in Kansas City and paying thousands online without inspection seems scary.

2. Who actually makes the 4NE? I understand, this model is outsourced to some factory where this guitar may (or may not) be hand made by the factory luthier(s). Does anyone know which factory or if there is a name of the actual luthier on the label or any other details on this model?
1. For under 3000 you can easily find a Ramirez copy made by some good Japanese luthiers from the 60's/70's. I've played several and they honestly sound better than the Ramirez 1a I played. Doing a bit of research on this forum could steer you in the right direction. Spronev is one such individual who has bought and sold several of these.
In regards to actual 1a's, I feel that they can be quite inconsistent. Some are amazing, while a lot are mediocre. I tried a beautiful looking Cedar/Brazilian 1a from the 70's, and its tone was quite disappointing. I wouldn't risk buying an actual 1a if I didn't get to try it in person first. I think the 1a has been over glorified, leading to this mystical idea that they are the epitome of the classical guitar.

2. The 4NE is a great guitar. If that is within your budget, I'd probably just get that as there is less risk involved. I've played a 4NE next to a Ramirez 1a and easily preferred the 4NE.

I have indeed had many different Ramirez 1A copies made in Japan in the 1970s and in my opinion the best ones are:

Masaru Matano model 600 from 1972, 1973, 1974 (later ones get progressively worse). I have a 1973. Internal construction is almost exactly like a Ramirez 1A. I bought mine for about $550 USD.

Hernandis Grade 1 from 1970, 1971, 1972 (haven't had later ones). I have a 1970. Internal construction is different from a Ramirez 1A but sound is similar. I know that there is a lot of controversy about these guitars but I prefer to listen to the sound and not opinions (especially of people who have not played them...). I bought mine for about $350 USD.

Robert England (he is on this forum) made a Ramirez 1A copy for me a couple of years ago with a spruce top and that's a great guitar in all ways I can think of. More expensive than the first two of course as it's hand-made but still in the 4NE price range.

Svilen

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spronev
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by spronev » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:13 am

To add a few more to the list that I have really like that have copied the Ramirez 1A construction:

Kenny Hill Madrid from the late 1990s and early 2000s (I have one for sale now on the forum now and it's a great guitar in both build quality and sound).

Takeo Koba from the early 1980s (I had one earlier and sold it but it was a great Ramirez 1A copy and sounded really nice).

Hiroshi Tamura P60 from the early to mid 1970s (I had one earlier and sold it but once again it was a great sounding guitar for the price).

Svilen

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robin loops
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by robin loops » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:39 am

I have a 3E, which is basically a 4E that didn't make the cut, usually for blemishes or other irregularity. I love it but have no idea how it stands up against a 1A.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
-James-

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robin loops
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by robin loops » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:44 am

Ramirez also have a conservatory line that is between their concert line and the estudio line. Not sure how long they made them but are about half the price (I think) and I had my eye on a used one a few years back for under 3000. Can't remember what they are called or the letter designation in the model number. Beautiful guitars though.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
-James-

brian
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by brian » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:44 am

robin loops wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:44 am
Ramirez also have a conservatory line that is between their concert line and the estudio line. Not sure how long they made them but are about half the price (I think) and I had my eye on a used one a few years back for under 3000. Can't remember what they are called or the letter designation in the model number. Beautiful guitars though.
Robin,
was this the "SP" model you're thinking
about? "Semi-Professional".
if at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
then quit.
there's no use being a damn fool about it.
-w.c. fields

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souldier
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by souldier » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:44 pm

spronev wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:13 am
To add a few more to the list that I have really like that have copied the Ramirez 1A construction:

Kenny Hill Madrid from the late 1990s and early 2000s (I have one for sale now on the forum now and it's a great guitar in both build quality and sound).

Takeo Koba from the early 1980s (I had one earlier and sold it but it was a great Ramirez 1A copy and sounded really nice).

Hiroshi Tamura P60 from the early to mid 1970s (I had one earlier and sold it but once again it was a great sounding guitar for the price).

Svilen
Appreciate your input Svilen. I'm sure it will be of help to someone looking for that 1a sound without having to spend a tonne of money. Do you have any pictures or idea what the 1a bracing construction looks like?
"Success grants its rewards to a few, but is the dream of the multitudes.
Excellence is available to all, but is accepted only by a few." - Christopher Parkening

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spronev
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by spronev » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:06 pm

souldier wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:44 pm
spronev wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:13 am
To add a few more to the list that I have really like that have copied the Ramirez 1A construction:

Kenny Hill Madrid from the late 1990s and early 2000s (I have one for sale now on the forum now and it's a great guitar in both build quality and sound).

Takeo Koba from the early 1980s (I had one earlier and sold it but it was a great Ramirez 1A copy and sounded really nice).

Hiroshi Tamura P60 from the early to mid 1970s (I had one earlier and sold it but once again it was a great sounding guitar for the price).

Svilen
Appreciate your input Svilen. I'm sure it will be of help to someone looking for that 1a sound without having to spend a tonne of money. Do you have any pictures or idea what the 1a bracing construction looks like?

It looks like the picture attached - this is from my Ramirez 1A copy made by Robert England. This one is spruce top and all other ones I referred to in previous posts are cedar tops.

Svilen
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Last edited by spronev on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:08 pm

souldier wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:44 pm
...Do you have any pictures or idea what the 1a bracing construction looks like?
Bracing styles for classical guitar
by Marcus Dominelli active here
http://www.thisisclassicalguitar.com/br ... al-guitars

and chapter: Jose Ramirez 3rd - text and very informative ilustration - Ramirez Bracing.
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.

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souldier
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by souldier » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:18 pm

spronev wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:06 pm
souldier wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:44 pm
spronev wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:13 am
To add a few more to the list that I have really like that have copied the Ramirez 1A construction:

Kenny Hill Madrid from the late 1990s and early 2000s (I have one for sale now on the forum now and it's a great guitar in both build quality and sound).

Takeo Koba from the early 1980s (I had one earlier and sold it but it was a great Ramirez 1A copy and sounded really nice).

Hiroshi Tamura P60 from the early to mid 1970s (I had one earlier and sold it but once again it was a great sounding guitar for the price).

Svilen
Appreciate your input Svilen. I'm sure it will be of help to someone looking for that 1a sound without having to spend a tonne of money. Do you have any pictures or idea what the 1a bracing construction looks like?

It looks like the picture attached - this is from my Ramirez 1A copy made by Robert England. This one is spruce top and all other ones I referred to in previous posts are cedar tops.

Svilen
Thanks for clear photo. In your experience, what general tonal qualities can one expect from a good 1a/1a copy?
"Success grants its rewards to a few, but is the dream of the multitudes.
Excellence is available to all, but is accepted only by a few." - Christopher Parkening

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spronev
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Re: The sound of Ramirez 1A for the price of 4NE?

Post by spronev » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:39 pm

souldier wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:18 pm
spronev wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:06 pm
souldier wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:44 pm


Appreciate your input Svilen. I'm sure it will be of help to someone looking for that 1a sound without having to spend a tonne of money. Do you have any pictures or idea what the 1a bracing construction looks like?

It looks like the picture attached - this is from my Ramirez 1A copy made by Robert England. This one is spruce top and all other ones I referred to in previous posts are cedar tops.

Svilen
Thanks for clear photo. In your experience, what general tonal qualities can one expect from a good 1a/1a copy?
Sound is hard to describe with words...

Let me try anyway: warm well-rounded trebles with a certain degree of muddiness but enough clarity too, deep bass that growls but again may not have the best clarity similar to the trebles. This is the sound of a 1970s Ramirez cedar-top 1A guitars which is quite the opposite of that of a traditional spruce-top Hauser: clear and transparent trebles and bass.

Would be good to have others pitch-in as well based on their experience.

Svilen

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