CITES

bobbyboy
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CITES

Post by bobbyboy » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:03 pm

I want to ship a 1967 Classical Guitar, Brazilian Rosewood, to The Netherlands.
Do I need a CITES certificate.
If so, where would I obtain one. I live in North Carolina.
Thanks,
BB

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rinneby
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Re: CITES

Post by rinneby » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:07 pm

bobbyboy wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:03 pm
I want to ship a 1967 Classical Guitar, Brazilian Rosewood, to The Netherlands.
Do I need a CITES certificate.
If so, where would I obtain one. I live in North Carolina.
Thanks,
BB
Yes you certainly need one. Are you the original owner of the guitar? Or did you purchase it before 1992? If so, then all is good, if not well... Then it will be more difficult. Sorry I can't be of more help.

/Jon
1962 - Rokutaro Nakade
2007 - Curt Claus Voigt
2009 - Simon Ambridge

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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lagartija
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Re: CITES

Post by lagartija » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:42 pm

There are links that you will find useful on this page:https://www.fws.gov/international/permi ... ments.html

Most of the links are for documents used for traveling with your own instrument, not for sales of an instrument. However, that information is probably on the site as well.
When the sun shines, bask.
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Classical Guitar forever!

simonm
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Re: CITES

Post by simonm » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:22 pm

bobbyboy wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:03 pm
I want to ship a 1967 Classical Guitar, Brazilian Rosewood, to The Netherlands.
Do I need a CITES certificate.
If so, where would I obtain one. I live in North Carolina.
Thanks,
BB
Apart altogether from the issue of how to get a certificate in the US, you also need to find out if the Netherlands will allow the import of the instrument even with a cites certificate. :-(

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andreas777
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Re: CITES

Post by andreas777 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:55 pm

You could sign my EU petition and wait until it is accepted :wink:
See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=115062
Happiness is when what you think what you say and what you do are in harmony.

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Beowulf
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Re: CITES

Post by Beowulf » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:09 pm

I think that you will need both an export permit from the US (though a pre-convention certificate may be possible (https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/f ... s-2013.pdf) and an import permit from the Netherlands (http://ec.europa.eu/environment/cites/i ... c223858308)
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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Les Backshall
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Re: CITES

Post by Les Backshall » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:22 pm

EU regulations are extremely strict on imports of listed materials.
For exporting CITES appendix 1 materials, the issuing authorities would need sight of a valid import license before they could issue an export license. Also, the relevant date for importing items containing appendix 1 materials, including musical instruments, is 1947 not 1992. Delivery by hand as a personal effect might be an option, but you would still need the right paperwork.

Les
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MessyTendon
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Re: CITES

Post by MessyTendon » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:02 pm

Couldn't one simply put a temporary veneer over using wheat paste glue and cheat a bit 😀

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zavaletas
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Re: CITES

Post by zavaletas » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:46 pm

The regulations may be found at https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/q ... r-2016.pdf

The key word here is ship. If you are traveling with an instrument that contains Brazilian there is a separate "passport" for your instrument that you can apply for.

A Musical Instrument Certificate is a passport-like certificate for musical instruments that is issued to
individuals when a CITES document is required. If your instrument contains material that would not be
exempt from a CITES listing, such as instruments that contain less than 10 kg of Dalbergia sp. wood, or
covered by the personal effects exemption, you may want to consider obtaining a musical instrument
certificate. These certificates have been issued for instruments that are manufactured from Brazilian
rosewood or contain wildlife species like African elephant ivory or sea turtle shell. To be eligible for this
certificate, your primary residence must be in the United States and you must be eligible for a CITES
document. These certificates may be valid for up to three years and are intended for multiple border
crossings for non-commercial purposes (i.e., the instruments are not being offered for sale or being sold
while outside the United States).

Submit application 3-200-88 to our office along with the processing fee. The form is available from
https://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-88.pdf. Instructions are on the form.

Likewise, musicians traveling abroad with their instruments that are not being sold and are in
accompanying personal baggage do not require a CITES document, if the instrument contains less than
10 kg (22 lbs) of CITES-listed rosewood, excluding Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra). Instruments that
contain more than 10 kg of CITES-listed wood, with the exception Brazilian rosewood, may qualify as a
personal effect under CITES and may not require a CITES document. Please consult with the CITES
Management Authorities of both origin and destination countries to determine if they implement these
requirements similarly
James, Zavaleta's La Casa de Guitarras

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andreas777
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Re: CITES

Post by andreas777 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:35 am

I was not aware of the following...

Q: I rarely sell my guitars outside the United States, but I have a customer coming to the United States to pick up a guitar in February. Will they be able to fly back to Japan with their instrument?

A: If the individual travels to the United States and hand-carries the guitar, we will consider this a noncommercial activity since the sale took place within the United States, and therefore it is not subject to the CITES listing for rosewood, excluding Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra), which is listed in CITES Appendix I. Please advise your customer to confirm with the Japanese CITES Authorities that they share this interpretation. If they require that the guitar be accompanied by a U.S. CITES document, our office will be able to issue one, assuming that all legal requirements are met.

That means I can fly to the US, buy a guitar containing non-Brazilian rosewood, and when I fly back with this guitar I only have to care about the German customs.
Happiness is when what you think what you say and what you do are in harmony.

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lagartija
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Re: CITES

Post by lagartija » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:06 pm

Just make sure you have that statement in writing....on official US Government letterhead.

Seriously, US Customs does not check outgoing luggage for contraband. If you buy something in the US, the assumption is that you obtained it legally. It is the importing country’s problem if the item is not allowed in that country.
Security inspection at the airport is for things considered dangerous to have on the flight. No determination is made whether or not the personal effects one carries are contraband in the country of arrival.
The exception would be if for some reason you were suspected of trying to smuggle quantities of items forbidden by international law (drugs. CITES Appendix I items, nuclear materials, etc.) and they received some sort of tip that you had it in your luggage.
When the sun shines, bask.
__/^^^^^o>
Classical Guitar forever!

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andreas777
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Re: CITES

Post by andreas777 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:58 pm

lagartija wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:06 pm
Just make sure you have that statement in writing....on official US Government letterhead.
The statement is taken from the official FWS PDF that zavaletas posted above.
In my view this is strange. Assume I commission a guitar at a luthier in the US and two years later that luthier sends the guitar to me in Germany. Then this is treated as a commercial activity, but if I fly to the US and take the guitar back in the aircraft then this is treated as a noncommercial activity because the sale took place within the US.
Happiness is when what you think what you say and what you do are in harmony.

ChristianSchwengeler
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Re: CITES

Post by ChristianSchwengeler » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:24 pm

Personally I am rather curious how it is when an US client comes to Europe and flies back to the US with an instrument he bought in EU. Any experience on that??

A friend from the forum has ordered 2 used guitars from Japan last year. He bought it on e - b a y. The portuguese authorities did not even open the items and they didn't care about possible rosewood. As long as you pay the taxes no problem. He said to me that on e - b a y when it says rosewood they would not let you bet, but when the same thing is omitted or described with an other name ... Jacaranda etc. you can participate in the auction without any problem. It is always the same, as long as nobody knows nobody cares, and it is much lesser work for the costums also.

I did not register any of my wood until now as I would have to pay 160 euros to register each species, and then every year plus 60 euros for each species. It is easy to calculate, if you register 3 species you will spend within 3 years 840 euros just to register, and the Cites paper for individual transactions if needed, are not for free either. I will rather buy some new wood with proper papers and keep the rest as it is. I have 4 good billets of african black wood, about 100 kg, and to register I would pay more as I payed for it... can't see the point of all this.

es335
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Re: CITES

Post by es335 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:01 pm

andreas777 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:58 pm
...In my view this is strange. Assume I commission a guitar at a luthier in the US and two years later that luthier sends the guitar to me in Germany. Then this is treated as a commercial activity, but if I fly to the US and take the guitar back in the aircraft then this is treated as a noncommercial activity because the sale took place within the US.
Nothing strange about this as it had not been different before. When I returned from a US trip in the 70s with three (!!!) new Gibsons at hand. The only thing to make customs accept them as my personal luggage was to show that I was able to play. Different times of course but in general the same attitude! :wink: :D

Let’s hope for CITES exception rules for musical instruments which were announced in another thread for this year.

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andreas777
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Re: CITES

Post by andreas777 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:08 pm

es335 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:01 pm
andreas777 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:58 pm
...In my view this is strange. Assume I commission a guitar at a luthier in the US and two years later that luthier sends the guitar to me in Germany. Then this is treated as a commercial activity, but if I fly to the US and take the guitar back in the aircraft then this is treated as a noncommercial activity because the sale took place within the US.
Nothing strange about this as it had not been different before. When I returned from a US trip in the 70s with three (!!!) new Gibsons at hand. The only thing to make customs accept them as my personal luggage was to show that I was able to play. Different times of course but in general the same attitude! :wink: :D

Let’s hope for CITES exception rules for musical instruments which were announced in another thread for this year.
True, but there is a difference: With the statement above I can tell the US customs frankly that I bought this rosewood-CITES-protected-guitar the day before and that I can't play guitar (yet).
Happiness is when what you think what you say and what you do are in harmony.

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