Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

safesphere
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Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

Post by safesphere » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:58 am

While I was looking for Ramirez 4NE, it was discontinued it and replaced with Studio 3:

http://www.codamusic.ru/Ramirez/CATALOGO%20ESTUDIO.pdf

Should I get the 4NE from a remaining stock and perhaps save a few hundred or go for the new "Studio 3" model trusting the Ramirez claim?

"After working for months revising templates,
fan bracings, thickness, woods … we have
managed to improve the sound and quality of
our range of guitars designed by ourselves."

My question is about the Ramirez track record of model changes over the years. Are later versions of essentially the same model usually better or worse or mostly just cosmetic changes like the rosette design? Thanks!

New Ramirez Studio 3:

https://pt-br.facebook.com/guitarras.ra ... 046103477/

Keith
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Re: Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

Post by Keith » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:09 pm

Assuming the 4NE is in good condition I would choose the 4NE. It has a proven record, is likely less expensive and I think it is better looking in the details (rosette, headstock, etc.). The "improvements" do not necessarily mean better sound.
be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

guitarras en la espiritu de la:
Marcelo Barbero
Jose Ramirez III

Gary Macleod
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Re: Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

Post by Gary Macleod » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:27 pm

Keith wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:09 pm
Assuming the 4NE is in good condition I would choose the 4NE. It has a proven record, is likely less expensive and I think it is better looking in the details (rosette, headstock, etc.). The "improvements" do not necessarily mean better sound.
Ok, you buy a Ramirez because you trust their reputation, why would you then question their claims to have improved the sound ?

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David Norton
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Re: Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

Post by David Norton » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:37 pm

For the same reason that Coca Cola recanted their "New Coke" in the mid 1980s: a marketing idea which failed badly. And you don't see much about the ugly Ramirez "Conservatorio" professional model anymore, the one with no bindings and no rosette to speak of. So in truth, Ramirez' reputation for new models in the past few years has gotten a mite shaky; for the most part they are still basking in the reflected glory of the 1960s/70s.
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT

Gary Macleod
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Re: Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

Post by Gary Macleod » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:12 pm

Aren't the Ramirez studio models made by Alhambra anyway, so who designed the new changes , Alhambra or Ramirez.?

Philosopherguy
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Re: Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

Post by Philosopherguy » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:14 am

I doubt too many people have played or seen the new Studio 3 guitars yet. I would guess, based on their recent moves (ie. 125 -> 130 -> Guitarra del Tiempo), that not too much has changed in the Studio 3 from the 4NE. My opinion is that Amelia is likely just trying to make her "mark" on the Ramirez brand, so is updating some of the cosmetics and maybe a few very minor structural changes to keep the guitar competitive.

I would guess that Ramirez still does all their design work. Afterall, they have many talented luthiers working in the Ramirez workshop too, along with Amalia. Being one of the most successful guitar companies, I'm sure they can still design and build a nice guitar.

So much Ramirez hate around here. I guess it doesn't always pay to be successful at what you do. Everyone always just wants to try and bring you down. Many Spanish companies have been outsourcing guitars for years. That doesn't mean they are lesser guitars. If they paid people in the Ramirez shop itself to build those guitars, it would likely be the same as them being outsourced and built anywhere else. They still do quality control and have written into the contracts exactly what they will get and how much they will pay for their exact model, I'm sure. That is how business works. The idea of a single luthier toiling in his/her shop to build 500 guitars just doesn't work with a successful company. It would be impossible to keep up with demand. You have to build in a way that makes the numbers feasible.

I have put my 4NE against many luthier guitars and it has never fared badly. Sure there are better guitars. It doesn't matter what guitar you buy, someone will always think there is a better guitar out there. Not everyone like the sound of a Hauser, Romanillos, or Smallman either, but you can't say they are not successful. To each their own.

I would guess that Ramirez still sells way more guitars in the midrange/high range than most of the other classical guitar companies out there. The only competitor who might give them a run for total sales in the mid-range genre is Cordoba or Yamaha. But, Ramirez also doesn't make too many "low end" models like Cordoba does. So, it would be hard to compare apples to apples. I don't think the 1A has any direct competition for high range production guitars, except maybe Sakurai/Kohno. Sure there are plenty of high range luthier guitars, but not likely sold in the quantities of the 1A.

Martin
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

Keith
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Re: Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

Post by Keith » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:25 am

Gary Macleod wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:27 pm
Ok, you buy a Ramirez because you trust their reputation, why would you then question their claims to have improved the sound ?
The OP wanted advice between two specific models and I tossed in my 2 cents on those two specific models.

David, thank you for the New Coke example.

A quick peep at the Bay has a few 4 series at good prices--likely less than the new Ramirez model.

As a side bar, the Ramirez folks state the work is done in Spain and not farmed out. A plus for them in keeping folks in Spain employed.
be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

guitarras en la espiritu de la:
Marcelo Barbero
Jose Ramirez III

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souldier
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Re: Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

Post by souldier » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:17 pm

Only way to know is to actually know is to compare them side by side. But then you have the issue of inconsistencies among the same models. For what it's worth, I've played the 4NE and thought it was a fantastic guitar. Do you have access to play on of these guitars in person?
"Success grants its rewards to a few, but is the dream of the multitudes.
Excellence is available to all, but is accepted only by a few." - Christopher Parkening

Gary Macleod
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Re: Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

Post by Gary Macleod » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:47 pm

souldier wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:17 pm
Only way to know is to actually know is to compare them side by side. But then you have the issue of inconsistencies among the same models. For what it's worth, I've played the 4NE and thought it was a fantastic guitar. Do you have access to play on of these guitars in person?
I used to own a 4e and have played 2 1a s , I thought the 4e was just as good as the 1a s.

safesphere
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Re: Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

Post by safesphere » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:38 pm

souldier wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:17 pm
Do you have access to play on of these guitars in person?
Nothing here in Kansas City. I will see if I can find something in the Washington DC area on a business trip in January. Does anyone know of a source there or in Baltimore?

Keith
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Re: Ramirez 4NE vs. Studio 3 - are newer models usually better or worse?

Post by Keith » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:59 pm

The Guitar Gallery in Fairfax VA
be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

guitarras en la espiritu de la:
Marcelo Barbero
Jose Ramirez III

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