'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

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dta721
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by dta721 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:58 pm

I have not read this book, just an online preview but it seems adequate to give some ideas about "The Development of Modern Guitar" by John Hubber. Excerpts on "Chater 1 - The Lessons of Torres", "Chapter 2 - Schools and Eras", "The 1960s - a Search for Loudness", "The 1970s and the Japanese Challenge" and "The 1980s - A Guitar Renaissance in Granada" ...etc are interesting and informative to me.

https://books.google.ca/books/about/The ... &q&f=false

Taylor 25
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by Taylor 25 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:18 am

petermc61 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:47 am
Taylor 25 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:58 am
No doubt that the expression "that Spanish sound" is subjective. However, I agree with celestemcc. IMO, a "Spanish sounding" guitar has a warmer, slightly darker tone, with beautiful timbre and rich trebles. Whereas a "modern" guitar has a bit more of a neutral, clean sound.
Sounds more like a ‘cedar Ramirez’ sound. A spruce Antonio Marin Montero sound nothing like that and is equally Spanish.

Good point. In truth, there are a wide variety of "Spanish sounding" guitars-- depending on the era and the maker. Right now, I personally tend to favor spruce tops with a rich tonal pallete and a bit of that old world "Spanish sound" that can handle both traditional Spanish repertoire as well as classical/baroque pieces like Bach.

BTW, how would you describe the sound of a spruce Antonio Marin Montero?

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petermc61
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by petermc61 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:32 am

Taylor 25 wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:18 am
BTW, how would you describe the sound of a spruce Antonio Marin Montero?
Interesting question.

Describing sound is like describing the flavour of wine. Hard to get a common vocabulary.

I would say a light, responsive and open sound. A guitar that is ‘fleet of foot’. The opposite of thick or turgid. I think one that, for overall balance and tonal response, sounds more like a Hauser III than a Madrid guitar...

celestemcc
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by celestemcc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:04 pm

IMO, a "Spanish sounding" guitar has a warmer, slightly darker tone, with beautiful timbre and rich trebles. Whereas a "modern" guitar has a bit more of a neutral, clean sound.
You've just described, in a nutshell, the difference between my '78 cedar/brazilian 1a, and my 2015 spruce/Indian Connor.
2015 Connor spruce/Indian rosewood
1978 Ramirez 1a cedar

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prawnheed
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by prawnheed » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:58 am

It's a symptom of the problem that our language is very poor when it comes to describing sounds, timbre in particular.

Even the few attempts to define the term do so using other poorly defined terms such as "rich", "warm", etc.

That leaves the expession, as previously stated, defined properly only in the Humpty Dumpty dictionary.

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zupfgeiger
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by zupfgeiger » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:56 am

Taylor 25 wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:18 am
petermc61 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:47 am
Taylor 25 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:58 am
No doubt that the expression "that Spanish sound" is subjective. However, I agree with celestemcc. IMO, a "Spanish sounding" guitar has a warmer, slightly darker tone, with beautiful timbre and rich trebles. Whereas a "modern" guitar has a bit more of a neutral, clean sound.
Sounds more like a ‘cedar Ramirez’ sound. A spruce Antonio Marin Montero sound nothing like that and is equally Spanish.

Good point. In truth, there are a wide variety of "Spanish sounding" guitars-- depending on the era and the maker. Right now, I personally tend to favor spruce tops with a rich tonal pallete and a bit of that old world "Spanish sound" that can handle both traditional Spanish repertoire as well as classical/baroque pieces like Bach.

BTW, how would you describe the sound of a spruce Antonio Marin Montero?
I would identify the Spanish sound with the guitars of the old masters like Torres, Garcia, Santos and Simplicio. By that time, cedar guitars did not exist. So the typical cedar Ramirez sound of the 70ies is not particularly "Spanish" anymore.
The secret of getting ahead is getting started (Mark Twain)

Andrea Tacchi, Enrique Garcia model, Spruce/BRAZ, 2016
Giovanni Tacchi, Daniel Friederich copy, cedar/EIR, 2017

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georgemarousi
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by georgemarousi » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:09 am

Taylor 25 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:58 am
No doubt that the expression "that Spanish sound" is subjective. However, I agree with celestemcc. IMO, a "Spanish sounding" guitar has a warmer, slightly darker tone, with beautiful timbre and rich trebles. Whereas a "modern" guitar has a bit more of a neutral, clean sound.
I very much agree with that description too.

I also believe that a Cedar Ramirez III is a very typical example of construction that expresses the "Spanish sound" as stated.

As for repertoire that suits this or not..

Spanish one like "rumores de la caleta" to me is a typical example that benefits from that darker, warm sound with rich trebles.

On the other hand, modern or complex repertoire, let's say Villa Lobos etude 11 that has a fast section which is too loaded, may benefit more with a cleaner sound guitar.

Of course the player and his/her style is a big factor too.

To summarize, I believe personal taste and repertoire is what defines our choice :)
Paulino Bernabe Especial 2009
Ramirez 1A 1980
Pavlos Gypas 1989
Panagi Brothers 1970
Juan Martinez nr 55 2014 (the comeback)
Yamaha cg 110 1988 (the 1st)
--
2014: the comeback

Jeffrey Armbruster

Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:07 pm

So, somewhat ironically, it seems that my Torrres based Japanese Takamine has a Spanish sound--perhaps.

Taylor 25
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by Taylor 25 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:18 pm

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:07 pm
So, somewhat ironically, it seems that my Torrres based Japanese Takamine has a Spanish sound--perhaps.
True, but for a time, Japanese builders like Takamine, set out to imitate the traditional Spanish sounding guitars as they best could. You could see this in some of the older models, which seemed to be patterned after the 60-70's Ramirez 1A guitars.

Taylor 25
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by Taylor 25 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:35 pm

I would identify the Spanish sound with the guitars of the old masters like Torres, Garcia, Santos and Simplicio. By that time, cedar guitars did not exist. So the typical cedar Ramirez sound of the 70ies is not particularly "Spanish" anymore.
[/quote]

I do love the old world sound of the old masters. I particularly love the 19th century Torres guitars that are featured on GSI. Such an amazing sound and tone colors!

What you say is true, however, I think that after those old masters, the Ramirez dynasty slowly began to take over. And after a while, began to redefine what it meant to have a "Spanish sounding" guitar. Of course, Ramirez was hardly alone in this as there were many other makers that also defined their respective eras. But my original point is that-- at least from my perspective-- "that Spanish sound" for many was influenced by the 60-70's Ramirez guitars.

Steve

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chelson
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by chelson » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:40 pm

I have wanted to recognize the "Spanish" sound for a long time. Is it a sound that represent the Spanish or the voice character that matches Spanish music well? After searching the YT on the sound from all those guitars mentioned here, I can only hear every guitar has their unique voice, but Spanish...?

For those who have understood or able to recognize what is "Spanish" sound, please point us to some video or recording in YT that best represent it, plus a comparison video of what is not. So that we can spot the difference and learn the Spanish accent.

A picture and sound are definitely better than a thousand words here.

Thank you. :)
Without heart and desire, talent is nothing.

JohnB
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by JohnB » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:13 pm

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madrilla
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by madrilla » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:02 am

If there is more than one spanish sound isn't it conducive to describe each one?

Rognvald
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by Rognvald » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:59 pm

This has been a very interesting discussion. My understanding, which appears to be incorrect, was that the "Spanish Sound" was represented by Cedar top guitars when it appears, perhaps, just the opposite was/is true. However, I believe there is a "Spanish Sound"(based on the repertoire--ex; Villa Lobos) and that, in my opinion, is best expressed on a cedar guitar. Contrawise, when playing a purely "Classical" repertoire(ex;-Bach), a spruce guitar, perhaps, gives the cleanest, most neutral sound. I own three cedars and one spruce and this is based on my experience with my instruments. However, either Cedar/Spruce's sound can be greatly altered by your choice of strings as I have done on all my guitars. I have one especially dark cedar(Esteve) that I have greatly enhanced to a greater, richer tonal palette by using bright basses and carbon fiber trebles. And, contrawise, if a person has an especially bright Spruce, it can also be altered by using more neutral or even "darker" strings. However, the baselines for these two woods are clearly different and only so much can realistically be accomplished with strings alone. For me, the bottom line is that the guitar you choose as an experienced musician is based more on the players personality and how he/she perceives the sound they want more than any other factor. For me, the sound I want is best accomplished on a cedar guitar . . . is that the "Spanish Sound?" To me it doesn't matter. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Dirck Nagy
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Re: 'That Spanish sound'....meaning?...

Post by Dirck Nagy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:32 pm

Along the same lines:

One of my teachers, "X", played for Segovia years ago. Segovia told him "X, for such a big man, you have a very little sound. You need to move to Spain, eat Spanish food, drink Spanish wine, and love Spanish women. Then, you will have a bigger sound."

So "X", my professor, did just that! Consequently, he does have a very big sound.

Apropos?
2015 John H. Dick
1994 Larry Breslin ("Deerhead")
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