Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

safesphere
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Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by safesphere » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:07 pm

Now that the Ramirez Studio 3 has been out for a good part of the year, has anyone had a chance to compare its sound against the previous model, 4NE? I would appreciate any insight, pros and cons. Thank you!
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Justfun
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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by Justfun » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:12 pm

I only know about the 4ne and is just a beautiful guitar.
Good Luck.

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David Norton
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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by David Norton » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:00 pm

The problem with such a request is that the sound will vary somewhat guitar to guitar, and player to player. The Ramirez management chose to replace the 4E / 4NE with the Studio 3 model. Presuming the Ramirez management are not idiots in terms of marketing and sales, they must perceive the Studio 3 to be "as good as" or "superior to" their very successful 4NE model.

Over the years, I have owned a 1978 Ramirez 1a (a complete disaster), a 1995 Ramirez 4E (very loud but lacking in tonal nuance or variety), and a 2004 Ramirez SP (which I regret selling). I have also played on a 1988 Ramirez 1a (very good), a 1996 1a (reasonably good), and a 1980 1a (phenomenal, and which came from Chris Parkening's collection). So going strictly by make/model, it's still something of a roll of the dice.
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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by safesphere » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:29 am

David Norton wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:00 pm
The problem with such a request is that the sound will vary somewhat guitar to guitar, and player to player. ...
Over the years, I have owned a 1978 Ramirez 1a ...
So going strictly by make/model, it's still something of a roll of the dice.
Thank you David, I appreciate your insight. From what I've gathered around this forum, it seems that Ramirez 1a varies widely indeed. I guess, when a maker goes for the best, he has to take risks, and the results are hit and miss. I also hear exactly the opposite about 4NE. Since it was the best outsourced model, the factory had to do its best to keep the quality consistent. I have never heard a bad comment about 4NE. It seems consistently excellent. I hear that 4NE is better than some samples of 1A.

I agree with you and would not ask this question about 1A or similar models, but 4NE and consequently Studio 3 may just be such an exception that my question may make sense for these models due to their remarkable sound consistency. And even if not, it still would be interesting to hear real life stories of the people who've played these instruments.
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Nikos_Greek
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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by Nikos_Greek » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:36 pm

It is very interesting to hear that there are 1as out there which are clear failures, considering the price of the instrument and the fact that they are totally luthier made instruments. One does not hear that often that, let's say a Contreras 1a or a Bernabe Especial are dogs, quite the contrary, they are renowned for their consistency. I wonder whether this is a sign of complacency on the part of Ramirez company.

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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by David Norton » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:41 pm

Nikos_Greek wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:36 pm
It is very interesting to hear that there are 1as out there which are clear failures, considering the price of the instrument and the fact that they are totally luthier made instruments. One does not hear that often that, let's say a Contreras 1a or a Bernabe Especial are dogs, quite the contrary, they are renowned for their consistency. I wonder whether this is a sign of complacency on the part of Ramirez company.
In the 1960s/70s, Ramirez was producing a very high number of 1a models. Statistically some would be better than others. The 1978 I owned was a poor example, there's a long backstory to this guitar which I learned many years after the fact. Oh well.
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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by Nikos_Greek » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:17 pm

I understand this David. Mr Zavaletas estimates that in the golden period in the workshop of Ramirez something like 1000 1as per year were produced (hopefully I am doing Mr Zavaletas justice). My question is at that time renowned luthiers worked for Ramirez, how come these guitars slipped the quality control? Or were standards lower those days? Hard to believe, yet the fact is that especially with Ramirez 1a you have to try yourself first before buying.

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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by Nikos_Greek » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:22 pm

I did not intended to hijack the topic. 4NE was a great guitar at a very good price for Ramirez standards (I find the 1a extremely overpriced). I don't know if the Studio 3 is necessarily better, though, Ramirez company seems to have a tendency to outphase models quite rapidly probably on pure marketing grounds.

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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by safesphere » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:34 am

Nikos_Greek wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:22 pm
I don't know if the Studio 3 is necessarily better
Hi Nikos, sorry for the delay. Studio 3 seems to be a successor of 4NE, but the details are unknown. For example, is it made on the same factory to the same specifications with only cosmetic changes? Of is it a somewhat different design and/or produced on a different arrangement? If the former, then my question is moot and both are essentially the same instrument. If the latter, then were the charges to cut costs or to improve the sound or anything else? The reputation of 4NE is hard to beat, so I doubt that Studio 3 can be much better, but conceptually is could be slightly better. On the other hand, even a minor change to a successful instrument can ruin the sound, so Studio 3 can be worse with the magic of 4NE missing. Sadly, after a year of production there is only like one or two videos on YouTube with Studio 3 and no one seems to have an opinion on this model.
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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by Philosopherguy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:46 am

safesphere wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:34 am

Hi Nikos, sorry for the delay. Studio 3 seems to be a successor of 4NE, but the details are unknown. For example, is it made on the same factory to the same specifications with only cosmetic changes? Of is it a somewhat different design and/or produced on a different arrangement? If the former, then my question is moot and both are essentially the same instrument. If the latter, then were the charges to cut costs or to improve the sound or anything else? The reputation of 4NE is hard to beat, so I doubt that Studio 3 can be much better, but conceptually is could be slightly better. On the other hand, even a minor change to a successful instrument can ruin the sound, so Studio 3 can be worse with the magic of 4NE missing. Sadly, after a year of production there is only like one or two videos on YouTube with Studio 3 and no one seems to have an opinion on this model.
In Canada, I find that the prices of Ramirez have risen quite sharply in the last 4 or 5 years. When I got my 130Anos the price was still quite reasonable. I think with their current pricing structure people are either going to go with cheaper brands or just spend a little extra and get a luthier instrument. I think this is a huge mistake Ramirez is making. They should do everything to keep their prices reasonable. I imagine that they are seeing an increase in costs due to CITES, labour and just general conditions. Last I heard the 4NE was around $3200 or $3400 Canadian which is quite a bit considering you can get a luthier guitar for the same or just a little more. Because of this price, you aren't going to see as many as were around a few years ago when they were rolling off the shelves quite quickly. Ultimately, this means that you won't get as many youtube videos or reviews.

I would doubt that the Studio 3 is less of a guitar than the 4NE.

All this being said, I love my Ramirez guitars. They both have a very classic Spanish sound with plenty of bite. They are the guitars I tend to play the most of all the guitars I have currently, or have had, over the years.

Martin
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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by Nikos_Greek » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:35 pm

@ Philosopherguy: I thought you had sold your Ramirez 4NE (and it was a good bargain)!

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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by Philosopherguy » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:00 am

Nikos_Greek wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:35 pm
@ Philosopherguy: I thought you had sold your Ramirez 4NE (and it was a good bargain)!
Not me! I think you are thinking of Scott.

I always play my 4ne. One day I might part with it if I find something else that suits me. But, it’s unlikely to be soon.

My next guitar will be a maple for sure. I likely want a Torres model. But, i am waiting.

Considering what I already have, a new guitar will really have to impress me. But, you never know when gas will strike!

Martin
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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by souldier » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:27 pm

Philosopherguy wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:46 am
safesphere wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:34 am

Hi Nikos, sorry for the delay. Studio 3 seems to be a successor of 4NE, but the details are unknown. For example, is it made on the same factory to the same specifications with only cosmetic changes? Of is it a somewhat different design and/or produced on a different arrangement? If the former, then my question is moot and both are essentially the same instrument. If the latter, then were the charges to cut costs or to improve the sound or anything else? The reputation of 4NE is hard to beat, so I doubt that Studio 3 can be much better, but conceptually is could be slightly better. On the other hand, even a minor change to a successful instrument can ruin the sound, so Studio 3 can be worse with the magic of 4NE missing. Sadly, after a year of production there is only like one or two videos on YouTube with Studio 3 and no one seems to have an opinion on this model.
In Canada, I find that the prices of Ramirez have risen quite sharply in the last 4 or 5 years. When I got my 130Anos the price was still quite reasonable. I think with their current pricing structure people are either going to go with cheaper brands or just spend a little extra and get a luthier instrument. I think this is a huge mistake Ramirez is making. They should do everything to keep their prices reasonable. I imagine that they are seeing an increase in costs due to CITES, labour and just general conditions. Last I heard the 4NE was around $3200 or $3400 Canadian which is quite a bit considering you can get a luthier guitar for the same or just a little more. Because of this price, you aren't going to see as many as were around a few years ago when they were rolling off the shelves quite quickly. Ultimately, this means that you won't get as many youtube videos or reviews.

I would doubt that the Studio 3 is less of a guitar than the 4NE.

All this being said, I love my Ramirez guitars. They both have a very classic Spanish sound with plenty of bite. They are the guitars I tend to play the most of all the guitars I have currently, or have had, over the years.

Martin
The cost is definitely prohibitive and a bit too high for the category that it is in. Could it be because of how poor the Canadian dollar has been doing? I've found that pretty much everything in Canada has gone up since terrible USD vs CAD exchange rate.
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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by safesphere » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:53 am

Philosopherguy wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:46 am

In Canada, I find that the prices of Ramirez have risen quite sharply in the last 4 or 5 years. When I got my 130Anos the price was still quite reasonable. [...] Last I heard the 4NE was around $3200 or $3400 Canadian which is quite a bit considering you can get a luthier guitar for the same or just a little more. Because of this price, you aren't going to see as many as were around a few years ago when they were rolling off the shelves quite quickly. Ultimately, this means that you won't get as many youtube videos or reviews.

Martin
Hi Martin,

Sure enough the dollar is going down and not only in Canada. Guitarra del Tiempo, the successor of your 130 Anos, is $2,468 USD and the Studio 3 is $3,068 USD. I love the sound of Ramirez 1A (or "Traditional"), but cannot justify the cost. I also read that 1A can sound differently. As a result those for sale likely are not the best. The closest I could get to 1A was 4NE, but it had been replaced by Studio 3.

Alex
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Re: Any actual comparisons of Ramirez Studio 3 to 4NE?

Post by Nikos_Greek » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:28 am

There is also the SP model by Ramirez and the Conservatorio. They stand between the former 4NE and the 1A. For those who love the Ramirez sound these models are more affordable alternatives. But it is difficult to find in store to try before purchasing.

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