This guitar costs $15,000

Tonit
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by Tonit » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:53 pm

Guero wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:00 am
Would that be the opposite of an exponential function?
Is it a log function?
I don't know and I am not figuring out :lol:. But it would be helpful should some math guy do that. Albeit that would be for cars, that function I suppose would give us somewhat comparable reference of our price per value (and/or experience) on CG market to strike our own respective balances upon purchase decisions.

nmshu1
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by nmshu1 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:44 pm

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Last edited by nmshu1 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Otto Vowinkel Concert | Paulino Bernabe Torres | Juan Hernandez Torres | German V. Rubio Concert | Kenny Hill Performance

nmshu1
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by nmshu1 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:58 pm

souldier wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:33 pm
This thread just highlights the subjective nature of value especially when it comes to the price of a classical guitar. When I was new to classical guitar, I always assumed that a higher price tag = superior sound. Over the years I've discovered that there are a lot of other factors that influence the price of a guitar. Other factors like the luthier's reputation, factory vs one-man shop, wood species used, historical value, made in china vs made in spain, aesthetic appeal, etc. all come into play and many are willing to pay top dollar for these other factors. A person who is not aware of these things may be shocked when they play a $40k classical guitar and feel that it only sounds marginally better than a $5k guitar, or not better at all.

Personal preferences are highly subjective. When I personally choose a guitar, the 2 main factors that I hold as supreme is whether it has a beauty of tone that grips me and whether the guitar is easy to play. Things like aesthetics, brand, price tag, woods used, etc. are not important to me. This is why I currently play on a guitar only worth a couple hundred dollars and yet prefer it over other $10K+ guitars that I have tried. It doesn't even necessarily mean my guitar is superior to the other guitars, but that my subjective preferences incline in a different direction. This is why I always suggest that when one goes to dealers to test various guitars, that the try their best to put their preconceived ideas aside and judge each guitar on its own merits, assuming sound is the most important thing they are going for.
Totally agree.
1. Beauty of tone and very well balanced
2. Ease of play
3. Highly responsive
4. Excellent separation
......
Last edited by nmshu1 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Otto Vowinkel Concert | Paulino Bernabe Torres | Juan Hernandez Torres | German V. Rubio Concert | Kenny Hill Performance

nmshu1
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by nmshu1 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:59 pm

rinneby wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:57 am
Rick Beauregard wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:37 am
An artist was painting on the malecon one day and a tourist passed by. The tourist asked the artist for a portrait. The artist looked annoyed, but picked up some charcoal and a sketch pad and proceeded to draw a likeness of the passer-by. After a little over 3 minutes he scribbled his name on the bottom and gave the tourist a hastily drawn picture and said, "2 million pasetas, please." The tourist was taken aback."2 million?!" he declared. "You must be crazy. It is not worth that. Why that didn't even take you 5 minutes, a little charcoal dust and some sketch paper!"

"No sir, not 5 minutes," said the artist, "it took me a lifetime."

Picasso-Signature.png
This quote says it all :bravo:

/Jon
To the point!
Otto Vowinkel Concert | Paulino Bernabe Torres | Juan Hernandez Torres | German V. Rubio Concert | Kenny Hill Performance

johnwmclean
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by johnwmclean » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:59 am

Machete wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:15 am
The first time I watched this video I was in awe at her technique and obvious talent, but I wanted to find out what guitar she was using. I emailed the company who made the video. The guitar is made by Jim Redgate, some Australian luthier, and it costs around $15,000. How can this be so expensive? That's the cost of a car.

Where is the price really coming from? There is no way in hell that whatever materials the guitar is made of amounts to 15k. I refuse to believe it, especially when most of a classical guitar is made of wood and other non luxurious materials, which can be found in watches, bags, etc. Where is this price coming from? I was expecting this guitar to be $7000 at the most.

The guitar sounds really good, but does it sounds $15,000 better than a $2000-3000 guitar? Obviously not. It's hand made but so are many other guitars below the $5000 range.

Apparently this so called "jim redgate" is considered one of the best luthiers in the world?
If you feel a $2000 - $3000 guitar is competitive with a Redgate by all means be happy and with your lot and count the money you’ve saved.

I’m fortunate to own a Redgate Double Top 2018 and count myself very lucky I’m not playing a $2000 - $3000 guitar.

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petermc61
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by petermc61 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:51 am

johnwmclean wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:59 am
Machete wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:15 am
The first time I watched this video I was in awe at her technique and obvious talent, but I wanted to find out what guitar she was using. I emailed the company who made the video. The guitar is made by Jim Redgate, some Australian luthier, and it costs around $15,000. How can this be so expensive? That's the cost of a car.

Where is the price really coming from? There is no way in hell that whatever materials the guitar is made of amounts to 15k. I refuse to believe it, especially when most of a classical guitar is made of wood and other non luxurious materials, which can be found in watches, bags, etc. Where is this price coming from? I was expecting this guitar to be $7000 at the most.

The guitar sounds really good, but does it sounds $15,000 better than a $2000-3000 guitar? Obviously not. It's hand made but so are many other guitars below the $5000 range.

Apparently this so called "jim redgate" is considered one of the best luthiers in the world?
If you feel a $2000 - $3000 guitar is competitive with a Redgate by all means be happy and with your lot and count the money you’ve saved.

I’m fortunate to own a Redgate Double Top 2018 and count myself very lucky I’m not playing a $2000 - $3000 guitar.
Hi John

Glad to hear you have the Redgate now. I’ll be interested to hear how it develops.

Once you have put a scratch or two on it if you are interested I’d be keen to exchange guitars with you for a week or two. You could try a double top from Dick or Canin or your choice from a few well known traditional luthiers. If interested drop me a note and I’ll let you know some of the choices!

All the best
Peter

Stephen Faulk
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by Stephen Faulk » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:04 am

The reason classical guitars are expensive is because in order for a guitar maker to support a family and maintain a shop, and a presence at international guitar shows, and pay for photos, videos, materials, the cost is high.

The price also reflects the years spent perfecting a few models of guitar they specialize in while learning how to make that model play and sound as good as possible. The price of that experience is reflected in the cost of the master maker guitar.

If you want to have something nice made by someone who has made a lifetime commitment to creating instruments you need to pay for it. It's not about 'what the market will bear' or 'this guitar couldn't be that good or cost more than $5000.00 to make' it has very little to do with that. It has to do with the sacrifice and time committed by a master maker to become a master maker. That person deserves the $15,000 because they spent the years it took to make that fine instrument in a situation of not making a lot of money, yet they continued. They earned the fee.

Pray to God you ever get interested in violin buying.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

Scott Phillips
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by Scott Phillips » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:08 am

I agree with you Stephen. I think the OP just doesn’t get it, and that is fine. When I first started out, I didn’t know any better than the Ramirez guitars vs the Córdoba guitars. And I really only knew about these two lines because a friend was a local dealer of these brands. It isn’t really about the cost of the guitar, but rather the lifetime of goodness that the right guitar brings to the player. I have had so many compliments on the sound of the guitar that you made me. I guess when you compare playing classical guitars to violin playing, $15,000 dollars won’t even get you started. But even guitars by Hauser I, and II, and guitars by Jeff Elliott, are still relatively inexpensive.

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Chris Sobel
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by Chris Sobel » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:39 am

Stephen Faulk wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:04 am
The reason classical guitars are expensive is because in order for a guitar maker to support a family and maintain a shop, and a presence at international guitar shows, and pay for photos, videos, materials, the cost is high.

The price also reflects the years spent perfecting a few models of guitar they specialize in while learning how to make that model play and sound as good as possible. The price of that experience is reflected in the cost of the master maker guitar.

If you want to have something nice made by someone who has made a lifetime commitment to creating instruments you need to pay for it. It's not about 'what the market will bear' or 'this guitar couldn't be that good or cost more than $5000.00 to make' it has very little to do with that. It has to do with the sacrifice and time committed by a master maker to become a master maker. That person deserves the $15,000 because they spent the years it took to make that fine instrument in a situation of not making a lot of money, yet they continued. They earned the fee.

Pray to God you ever get interested in violin buying.
Exactly. Most people would be surprised to know that selling a guitar for $6000 is barely a livable income in some places if you have a family and aren't making more than a handful of guitars a year.
CE Sobel Guitars

Stephen Faulk
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by Stephen Faulk » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:58 am

Scott Phillips wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:08 am
I agree with you Stephen. I think the OP just doesn’t get it, and that is fine. When I first started out, I didn’t know any better than the Ramirez guitars vs the Córdoba guitars. And I really only knew about these two lines because a friend was a local dealer of these brands. It isn’t really about the cost of the guitar, but rather the lifetime of goodness that the right guitar brings to the player. I have had so many compliments on the sound of the guitar that you made me. I guess when you compare playing classical guitars to violin playing, $15,000 dollars won’t even get you started. But even guitars by Hauser I, and II, and guitars by Jeff Elliott, are still relatively inexpensive.
I got my first instrument making lessons be in a violin shop in my junior year of high school in the late 70's - At that time $15,000 was about what a pro player would think was a good price for good quality instrument that wasn't by an Italian master. You could also get a minor Italian or very important as 19th century French master for forty grand US. My cello teacher had a Fiorini cello, a modern Italian maker from the 1920's she bought it for between $12,000 and 15,000 the with a bank loan in 1972- when she died two years ago it was worth probably six or eight times that.

I didn't think to look up what his Celli are going for today. Guitarists are really lucky today because they are getting master grade instruments for quite reasonable prices.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

Tonit
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by Tonit » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:58 am

Stephen Faulk wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:58 am
Guitarists are really lucky today because they are getting master grade instruments for quite reasonable prices.
Hence so many guitar collectors with so many guitars out there :o It's fun to be a guitar player than a violin player.

As we have seen in various arts, it's not about the monetary value of the tools or materials. When an artist have come upon an idea to make a cat object with clay body and two diamond eyes, the clay and the diamonds are of the same artistic value because both are equally indismissible in realizing his idea. So was Eric Clapton's Blackie which was assembled with the best parts taken out of three strats being on sale. When a guitarist likes a guitar, it is not because of the price tag, but its tone and ease of playing.

While guitarists are luckier than violinists, woodwind instrumentalits appear to be even more so, especially the saxophone players are even luckier. Violins are lighter and more expensive than guitars, while saxophones are generally heaier than the guitars and more affordable. But it appears that less saxophone players collect their instruments. There might be no rule we can find.

Stephen Faulk
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by Stephen Faulk » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:06 pm

Are you. Saying that by the soprano sax is a different price than the sub contrabass sax?
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:17 pm

Tonit wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:58 am
...
While guitarists are luckier than violinists, woodwind instrumentalits appear to be even more so, especially the saxophone players are even luckier. Violins are lighter and more expensive than guitars, while saxophones are generally heaier than the guitars and more affordable. But it appears that less saxophone players collect their instruments. ...
I think you'll find that this is balanced by most woodwind players having to own several different variants, e.g. all the sizes of sax, a clarinet or two, a flute, a piccolo etc.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
Simon Ambridge 'Hauser' (2018)

Tonit
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by Tonit » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:42 pm

Stephen Faulk wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:06 pm
Are you. Saying that by the soprano sax is a different price than the sub contrabass sax?
No, I am not talking about that as much as I am not talking about contrabass guitar or alto guitar, but their most popular kinds that are seen in professional performances. Even some vintage Selmers are not so accessible as some Torreses or Hausers.
Yet today with some 3d printed plastic saxophone toys (and not any master grade instrument), I would consider they have become more accessible in that tier also. Yet bassoons continue to be all the less accessible, even with PRC made ones.
Violins, as we have seen, cover the widest price range IMPO.

Pat Dodson
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Re: This guitar costs $15,000

Post by Pat Dodson » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:19 pm

Tonit wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:53 pm
Guero wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:00 am
Would that be the opposite of an exponential function?
Is it a log function?
I don't know and I am not figuring out :lol:. But it would be helpful should some math guy do that....
Everyday parlance tends to speak of “the law of diminishing returns” which is pretty much what logarithmic growth looks like.

The diagram below is from an economics text but if each unit on the horizontal axis =£50 and the vertical axis is thought of as some arguable way of measuring “quality” or “musical worth as a guitar” then some of what is discussed in this thread is perhaps “drawn out” by the logarithmic growth curve shown.

I know, I know; it’s crude and in real life you find all sorts of “exceptions that prove the rule” but maybe it helps the queries above?
1D4103CE-70B3-4B4B-B2DA-B1274B00AE01.jpeg
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