Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Guero
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Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by Guero » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:38 pm

Hello everybody!

Again and again you read about "that sweet spanish sound" of a (mostly traditional) "spanish" guitar. Without any further description or explanation. It seems to be a slogan that automatically evokes a notion of I don't know what in the minds of many CG goblins...

So if you'd take the "spanish" sound on one end of the sound scale what would be on the opposite side of the scale? A cold, neutral, analytic, thin, banjo/piano kind of sound?! (not talking about loudness in the first place)
Maybe something like that piezo-sound you get from cheapish electrified nylon guitars?

So what do you think is the most "unspanish" sounding guitar?
(some people consider Hanika guitars to be quite "unspanish"?!)

Greetings, Güero.

astro64
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by astro64 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:35 pm

Barring anything electronic, a Smallman guitar.

Rasqeo
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by Rasqeo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:04 pm

No guitar sounds “Spanish” or “un-Spanish”. A Smallman or any other maker’s guitar you care to mention can be made to sound “Spanish” by the right player.

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David Norton
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by David Norton » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:51 pm

Take a spruce top, either with lattice and/or double-top, and perform a more astringent repertoire, and you're there. It's the player and the repertoire far more than the box itself.
David Norton
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vesa
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by vesa » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:08 am

Smallman, Dammann, Gernot Wagner, Kasha
Vesa Kuokkanen

Antonio Marin nr. 813 1995 (Bouchet)
Vesa Kuokkanen 2016

Rasqeo
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by Rasqeo » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:51 am

vesa wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:08 am
Smallman, Dammann, Gernot Wagner, Kasha
And yet David Russell, John Williams and Jason Vieaux can make those very guitars sound distinctly Spanish when they want to.

Guero
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by Guero » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:15 am

Guero wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:38 pm
It seems to be a slogan that automatically evokes a notion of I don't know what in the minds of many CG goblins...
Rasqeo wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:51 am
can make those very guitars sound distinctly Spanish when they want to.
Now I think we are getting to the point...
What is spanish sound to you?
I mean I can play creamy spanish 19th c compositions on my EG. Will it sound spnish because of the nationality of the composers or because of the clichés about Spain we have in our heads?!
Maybe we mix up sound with composition. If you'd play a Smith Brindle Sonata on a Ramirez 1a would it still "sound spanish"?

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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by Rasqeo » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:05 pm

Guero wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:15 am
If you'd play a Smith Brindle Sonata on a Ramirez 1a would it still "sound spanish"?
No.

Guero
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by Guero » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:19 pm

Ok, so I hope we all see now how ridiculous these sound debates are: :D :D


(oh man, conveying irony and sarcasm on internet forums is almost impossible...)

Rasqeo
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by Rasqeo » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:32 pm

Guero wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:19 pm



(oh man, conveying irony and sarcasm on internet forums is almost impossible...)
Or otherwise known as “trolling”.

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andi33x
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by andi33x » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:44 pm

I hope I am not a troll :) But I think the harmonics (overtones) are responsible for the "spanish sound". Of course the player creates these harmonics but one guitar supresses them partly, the other guitar does not.

I had the occasion to play some lattice and some double top guitars recently. In sum the sound was dark compared to "normal" guitars. I.e. not many overtones or only up to a certain order. This is the "non spanish" sound for me.
There is nothing more beautiful than the sound of a guitar - maybe aside from that of two guitars (Frederic Chopin)

Rasqeo
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by Rasqeo » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:29 pm

andi33x wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:44 pm
I hope I am not a troll :) But I think the harmonics (overtones) are responsible for the "spanish sound". Of course the player creates these harmonics but one guitar supresses them partly, the other guitar does not.

I had the occasion to play some lattice and some double top guitars recently. In sum the sound was dark compared to "normal" guitars. I.e. not many overtones or only up to a certain order. This is the "non spanish" sound for me.
With respect, this is nonesense. The idea that a guitar, in itself, can sound Spanish, French, German or whatever else you want is absurd.

Certain guitars, say a Ramirez, may be associated with Spanish repertoire because traditionally that’s what players who used those guitars played on them. But Segovia sounded like Segovia regardless of whether he was playing a Ramirez or a Hauser.

astro64
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by astro64 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:43 pm

But John Williams on a Smallman never sounded like John Williams on a Fleta.

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souldier
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by souldier » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:09 pm

Its true the player largely determines how a guitar will sound, but nobody here would deny that different guitars have different tonal profiles irrespective of the player. I've played some guitars that definitely did not sound like a traditional classical guitar (whether you want to call that "unspanish" or not). When on the listening end of a guitar it can be quite harder to tell, but as a player it becomes more obvious how a guitar really sounds.
"Success grants its rewards to a few, but is the dream of the multitudes.
Excellence is available to all, but is accepted only by a few." - Christopher Parkening

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andi33x
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Re: Most "unspanish" sounding guitar

Post by andi33x » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:37 pm

Rasqeo wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:29 pm
andi33x wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:44 pm
I hope I am not a troll :) But I think the harmonics (overtones) are responsible for the "spanish sound". Of course the player creates these harmonics but one guitar supresses them partly, the other guitar does not.

I had the occasion to play some lattice and some double top guitars recently. In sum the sound was dark compared to "normal" guitars. I.e. not many overtones or only up to a certain order. This is the "non spanish" sound for me.
With respect, this is nonesense. The idea that a guitar, in itself, can sound Spanish, French, German or whatever else you want is absurd.

Certain guitars, say a Ramirez, may be associated with Spanish repertoire because traditionally that’s what players who used those guitars played on them. But Segovia sounded like Segovia regardless of whether he was playing a Ramirez or a Hauser.
This "Spanish" sound is related to a certain singing sound, mainly of the upper strings. Of course this sound is not "Spanish" compared with "German" or whatever but it has a similarity to the typical Flamenco sound and people say then it is "Spanish", simply in order to have a label for it. In my sphere this is common language. It has nothing to do with repertoire. When you try to play Bach on a Flamenco guitar then you will know what I mean.
There is nothing more beautiful than the sound of a guitar - maybe aside from that of two guitars (Frederic Chopin)

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