Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Folledanza
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Folledanza » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:54 pm

Barba is 4500$, Ramirez (1960, cypress, spruce) 1500$ but very very worn...

Carlos
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Carlos » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:22 am

Folledanza wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:54 pm
Barba is 4500$, Ramirez (1960, cypress, spruce) 1500$ but very very worn...
1500 $ for a Ramirez as you describe is an excellent price, even if the guitar is worn off (as long as the sound is good - and I assume it has the modern headstock, does it?). For your info, I just bought one Ramirez spruce/cypres from 1964 (initials IM) for double that price. I am not gonna claim it's the lowest price you can get on the private market, yet I do not like to overpay my guitars either...

I am less familiar with Barba's guitars, but clearly this is a well known luthier, I see no reason a priori to doubt about authenticity (perhaps you can try to call the workshop rather than emailing, if they do not answer), the guitar's woods look gorgeous and you say the sound is good, hence 4500$ could actually be a good price as well.

Is it the same seller?

Ps: can you show some picture of the ramirez?
(I attach pictures of mine for you to compare)
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Folledanza
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Folledanza » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:55 pm

Hi Carlos, Thanks a lot for your advise.
I have no picture of the Ramirez, but I will certainly have to reset the fingerboard and frets and I also will need to clean and revarnish the top (it's horribly worn and dirty... :-( )
I did not fund any stamp above the label, is that usual?

Rasqeo
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Rasqeo » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:26 pm

Folledanza wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:54 pm
Barba is 4500$, Ramirez (1960, cypress, spruce) 1500$ but very very worn...
I’d go for the Ramirez if it sounds good.

simonm
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by simonm » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:36 pm

Folledanza wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:40 pm
.... just very very used as a flamenco guitar played for more then 50 yeas...
Folledanza wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:55 pm
...
I have no picture of the Ramirez, but I will certainly have to reset the fingerboard and frets and I also will need to clean and revarnish the top (it's horribly worn and dirty ...
Anyone trying to make a suggestion will have a problem here. The first statement could suggest that the instrument is "tired" and sounds like it is worn out, whereas the second might just suggest that the instrument is simply a bit dirty and could use a bit of tlc. Assuming you like the sound and playability, I suspect the Ramirez is a much better buy. The only way to find out is to play both.

Carlos
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Carlos » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:34 am

Folledanza wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:55 pm
Hi Carlos, Thanks a lot for your advise.
I have no picture of the Ramirez, but I will certainly have to reset the fingerboard and frets and I also will need to clean and revarnish the top (it's horribly worn and dirty... :-( )
I did not fund any stamp above the label, is that usual?
You´re welcome!

On the stamp, please note that I am answering with limited knowledge of what Ramirez was doing in the 50´s-60´s. I understand there was a period where they were mainly doing tablao guitars, particularly during the spanish civil war (1936-1939) when they had limited access to good material. Then they started to differentiate into 1a and other models, and I also understand there was a new impulse given by Jose Ramirez III (who took over the workshop when Jose Ramirez II died in 1957). I cannot say exactly what they were doing in 1960. I note that they did not mention 1a in the guitar label at this time, yet I could find different type of headstocks in the 50´s with some modern ones and other more like the previous "rougher" type. And some where you could see the wood is not top of quality.

Hence, probably, I would say the absence of stamps likely indicate something about the model you have which might not be the top of the line. There were already stamped model coming out of Ramirez 1a in 1960 (see that instance here: https://www.guitarsalon.com/store/p3486 ... meida.html).

One way to try to identify where your guitar stands, in terms of model line, could be to compare it with all those examples available for Ramirez in the flamenco guitar museum here: https://www.flamenco-guitar.net/museum/jose-ramirez/ and the other instance of "vintage Ramirez" you could find on line.

I would however not give too much weight on whether the guitar was a top of the line or not, as the woods used at that time where of very good quality, and the guitar has aged (which gives a particular charm to the sound), hence what you should rely most on to judge is the sound, which you say is nice - and this is all what matters.

I also agree with Rasqueo and simonm that the Ramirez is very likely the better option to go - but we are speaking without having even seen the instrument.

I do not know how much the luthier intervention you have in mind would cost where you are. As far as I could see, a complete refret would cost ca 180€, a rebarnish - say- 400€. So let´s say you would be around 700$+1500$, which would still not be a bad price yet of course not as good as 1500 but then the guitar would be in very good condition.

Personally I would avoid as much as possible touching the guitar, eg I would adjust what needs to be adjusted so that the guitar is playable, but avoid re-varnishing it if not really needed. But it is true that it is also a pleasure to have a good looking guitar to play.

Lastly, as you are aware (as you opted to look for a guitar from the 60's), when buying this Ramirez you are also adcquiring a piece of history. This is also something which brings joy and satisfaction and at this stage the type of model matters less than when buying a new guitar.

By the way: could you tell us what is the guitar scale ?

Folledanza
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Folledanza » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:51 pm

Thanks Carlos for your long and interesting post.
The Ramirez seems to my not expert eyes as a "1A". Label first, with blue border, top, back, rosette and headstock.
Scale is 655.
Next week I will go for a second visit to the guitar. I will let you know...

Carlos
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Location: Germany

Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Carlos » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:55 pm

You're welcome!
By the way, for you to compare, here a Francisco Barba 1966 for sale at 5200€ (=5800$)
https://www.guitares-occasion.com/fr/gu ... barba_5369
It comes from a seller who is typically making relatively modest profit margins.

Folledanza
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Folledanza » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:45 pm

Nice guitar, it looks a lot like a Ramirez :-) !

Folledanza
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Folledanza » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:31 pm

So, I asked the seller for pictures...
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Carlos
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Carlos » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:04 pm

Thank you for sharing!
The guitar looks nice! The headstock is modern, and the label is blue. There is no stamp for the luthier, i do not know why.
Indeed the top is a bit dirty under the strings, and quite a few playmarks all over the top, but at least the guitar has been played...
Would be worthwhile checking under the golpeadors inside the guitar, to check for possible cracks.
Personnally for 1500$ i find it a buy worth considering, provided the sound is good. But given the conditions and the need fir restorazions perhaps the seller might be open to reduce the price even further (could be worth asking).
Ps: the tuners seem quite new, right?

MessyTendon
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by MessyTendon » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:13 pm

The Ramirez is overpriced. It's not a very good guitar. A neglected Ramirez is just that...much less value and if you search around.

If you want a Ramirez buy a good one. I'd have no problem offering 600-700$ because I know the most I'd ever be able to get is 1,000$...that's just my opinion.

I don't agree that it's worth 1500$. For 2,000$ there are like new flamenco guitars with great frets and finish. The bridge looks a little bit saggy one and the saddle is quite low, the nut slot looks bad, as if to be lowered to the extreme.

Keep your eyes open for other guitars.

astro64
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Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by astro64 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:31 am

Filled with what looks like mold, I would pass.

Carlos
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Location: Germany

Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Carlos » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:48 am

Hi there,

just to say that the feedback of messytendon and astro64 are worth being given some weight - thanks to them for stepping in. I am no expert, and my reaction was likely blinded by my attraction towards vintage guitars (and the fact that i paid twice more for a ramirez built 4 years later, however in much better shape)

Besides, here it is true that the guitar seems to have quite some mold inside. It's quite obvious, and the fact that I overlooked it is quite an indication of the optimistic bias i developped towards the buy ahead of seeing the pictures.

It would be useful to have a luthier's reaction on the extent of the mold and the possible consequences to fear, looking forward (perhaps messytendon can tell, being an amator luthier).

Eventually, average market prices are the average of what people are ready to pay. So, if one wants to pay 1500, another one 650, and the third one zero, then the guitar might just be worth 710.

And I agree as well that for 2000$ one can find nice flamenco guitars in very good conditions.

Kind regards,
Carlos.

Folledanza
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Francisco Barba 1962?!?

Post by Folledanza » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:50 am

Thanks to all for the feedbacks on the pictures. I sent the pictures to my friend Lucio Carbone in Milan. I will keep you update with his comment on them.

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