Wanted Hauser Copy

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souldier
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by souldier » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:05 pm

Portland Bill wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:41 pm
I don’t know what strings were on it as it was returned the day after receipt, there was a large dish in front of the bridge and arching to the rear of it, as I recall 7cm of saddle showing over the bridge, it seemed to me that the forward buckling of the saddle was making the problem worse.
I would totally love to see a guitar with a 7cm tall saddle! Imagine the raw power of that bad boy :D
"Success grants its rewards to a few, but is the dream of the multitudes.
Excellence is available to all, but is accepted only by a few." - Christopher Parkening

DanS
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by DanS » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:23 pm

Portland Bill wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:13 pm
DanS wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:58 pm
I hope that's 0.7cm! But yes, certainly fixed by the time I played it (assuming it's the same one!) Good luck with the search - I certainly enjoyed my time playing that guitar: definitely the pick of the instruments they had in at the time.

Have you tried any instruments from Rohan Lowe or Kevin Aram?
I owned a very nice Aram that I sold on here which I now regret selling especially at the price it went for, a lovely guitar, no I haven’t had experience of a Rohan Love, that Southwell if it was the same one had the deepest bass of any guitar that I have ever played and by quite a margin, I was gutted that it had a problem.
Yes I remember being impressed with the bass: the whole 'package' was very responsive too - I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. Best of luck with the search: do let us know what you find!
astro64 wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:40 pm
The problem the Southwell had is likely why it sounded so good and had that awesome bass. I have a guitar like that, not by him. Thin top, big dish in front of the bridge, tall saddle, awesome bass, has been stable for many years. You take your chances....
I've had similar experiences - thin tops seem quite sensitive to humidity changes too. One instrument in particular had a top I thought 'collapsed' brought back to 'normal' with proper humidification

madrilla
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by madrilla » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:48 pm

souldier wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:05 pm
Portland Bill wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:41 pm
I don’t know what strings were on it as it was returned the day after receipt, there was a large dish in front of the bridge and arching to the rear of it, as I recall 7cm of saddle showing over the bridge, it seemed to me that the forward buckling of the saddle was making the problem worse.
I would totally love to see a guitar with a 7cm tall saddle! Imagine the raw power of that bad boy :D
To be blunt, you want a cello.

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bacsidoan
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by bacsidoan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:32 pm

souldier wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:05 pm
Portland Bill wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:41 pm
I don’t know what strings were on it as it was returned the day after receipt, there was a large dish in front of the bridge and arching to the rear of it, as I recall 7cm of saddle showing over the bridge, it seemed to me that the forward buckling of the saddle was making the problem worse.
I would totally love to see a guitar with a 7cm tall saddle! Imagine the raw power of that bad boy :D
You will be surprised that the effect is not as great as you think. Below is a copy and paste of an experiment by Alan Carruth. He raised the string height from the top to 18 mm which means that the saddle height was even greater than 7 cm:

Post by Alan Carruth » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:07 pm

Chris got it right, if my measurements are to be believed: there's a change in timbre, but not power.

Several years ago I got interested in the discussion about break angle. Folks would post on (mostly steel string) lists on line to say that they had increased the break angle over the saddle and the sound improved. When I asked them how they'd changed it, usually they'd say it was by putting in a taller saddle. Since this alters both the break angle and the string height off the top, I did an experiment to see which of the two variables was having the biggest impact.

I set up a 'test mule' classical guitar with an 18-hole tie block. This allowed for tying the strings in two ways: the usual one into the holes in front of the block, or by passing the string over the tie block and into the holes in the back. The usual tie gave a break angle of about 25 degrees, while the modified tie gave a minimal break of around 6 degrees. I also made a taller saddle so that the 'back' tie would give a 25 degree break. The regular saddle put the strings 11 mm off the top, while the tall saddle had them at 18 mm off the top (don't try this at home!).

I used a mechanical plucker based on the 'wire break' method to get uniform plucks of the open strings for each setup case. The sound was recorded on my computer using a microphone one meter out in front of the guitar in a 'semi-anechoic' closet. I compared six plucks on each string to make sure they were reasonably uniform. I also made up a 'synthetic strum' for each case to use in listening tests. These were randomly paired and played back through ear phones. Listeners were asked only if the sounds were 'the same' or 'different'.

Objective measurements showed that there was no significant difference in the maximum amplitude, or rise or fall time, for the plucks in any case: the overall power output of the guitar was the same as far as could be told. There was also no difference in the spectral content of the sound for the two cases where the string height off the top was 11mm: changing the break angle does not seem to alter the amount of sound the strings can put into the top. Raising the string height to 18 mm off the top resulted in two changes in the sound output:
1) there was more energy in the second partial, and, in some cases, in the fourth partial of the string, and
2) there was more energy at the frequency of the longitudinal 'zip tone'; a compression wave within the string that is normally up around the 7th or 8th partial.

String tension rises twice per cycle at it vibrates, and this pulls the top of the saddle toward the nut, rocking the bridge at even multiples of the fundamental pitch and producing some top motion. The longitudinal 'zip tone' wave acts in much the same way. A taller saddle gives both of these signals more leverage to produce sound. Presumably, energy fed into the system in this way reduces the power available to drive the bridge through the more effective 'transverse' force, which may explain why there's no more power available with the taller saddle.

In the listening tests people were basically guessing when they were called on to compare the two 'low' saddle cases with different break angles. Virtually everybody heard the difference between the 'low' and 'high' saddle cases. Thus it seems that the measured differences in harmonic content of the sound between the cases translated pretty reliably into perception.

Although I did not ask for impressions of timbre, it does seem as though the increase in output at the 'zip tone' pitch could well be perceived as a 'sharper' or 'more cutting' timbre. It comes in at relatively high frequencies, and is usually more or less dissonant, so it would tend to stand out .

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to get a summary of the work out.

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souldier
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by souldier » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:12 pm

bacsidoan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:32 pm
souldier wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:05 pm
Portland Bill wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:41 pm
I don’t know what strings were on it as it was returned the day after receipt, there was a large dish in front of the bridge and arching to the rear of it, as I recall 7cm of saddle showing over the bridge, it seemed to me that the forward buckling of the saddle was making the problem worse.
I would totally love to see a guitar with a 7cm tall saddle! Imagine the raw power of that bad boy :D
You will be surprised that the effect is not as great as you think. Below is a copy and paste of an experiment by Alan Carruth. He raised the string height from the top to 18 mm which means that the saddle height was even greater than 7 cm:
I actually remember this post from Alan. Although I fail to see how 18mm from the top would lead to a saddle height greater than 7cm, unless you mistook 18mm for 18cm. That would truly be a freak of nature :D
"Success grants its rewards to a few, but is the dream of the multitudes.
Excellence is available to all, but is accepted only by a few." - Christopher Parkening

UKsteve
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by UKsteve » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:41 pm

Portland Bill wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:41 pm
I don’t know what strings were on it as it was returned the day after receipt, there was a large dish in front of the bridge and arching to the rear of it, as I recall 7cm of saddle showing over the bridge, it seemed to me that the forward buckling of the saddle was making the problem worse.
I played that guitar after Portland Bill had returned it.

It was indeed severely dished in front of the bridge. I was surprised at that, given it was a Hauser copy, and Hauser's tend to have relatively thick tops.

It may be that a super low body resonance was the aim, since, like Bill (Tony) says, it had a tremendously beefy bottom end. I have to say, however, that I thought this overpowered the rest of the guitar - the trebles were relatievly dominated: Quite unlike a real Hauser where perfect string to string balance is the defining quality.

DanS
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by DanS » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:16 pm

UKsteve wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:41 pm
Portland Bill wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:41 pm
I don’t know what strings were on it as it was returned the day after receipt, there was a large dish in front of the bridge and arching to the rear of it, as I recall 7cm of saddle showing over the bridge, it seemed to me that the forward buckling of the saddle was making the problem worse.
I played that guitar after Portland Bill had returned it.

It was indeed severely dished in front of the bridge. I was surprised at that, given it was a Hauser copy, and Hauser's tend to have relatively thick tops.

It may be that a super low body resonance was the aim, since, like Bill (Tony) says, it had a tremendously beefy bottom end. I have to say, however, that I thought this overpowered the rest of the guitar - the trebles were relatievly dominated: Quite unlike a real Hauser where perfect string to string balance is the defining quality.
I wonder if a slightly thinner top is particular to the 'augustine'/1940 hauser copies (relative to copies of other hauser instruments) ?

Portland Bill
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by Portland Bill » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:23 pm

DanS wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:16 pm
UKsteve wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:41 pm
Portland Bill wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:41 pm
I don’t know what strings were on it as it was returned the day after receipt, there was a large dish in front of the bridge and arching to the rear of it, as I recall 7cm of saddle showing over the bridge, it seemed to me that the forward buckling of the saddle was making the problem worse.
I played that guitar after Portland Bill had returned it.

It was indeed severely dished in front of the bridge. I was surprised at that, given it was a Hauser copy, and Hauser's tend to have relatively thick tops.

It may be that a super low body resonance was the aim, since, like Bill (Tony) says, it had a tremendously beefy bottom end. I have to say, however, that I thought this overpowered the rest of the guitar - the trebles were relatievly dominated: Quite unlike a real Hauser where perfect string to string balance is the defining quality.
I wonder if a slightly thinner top is particular to the 'augustine'/1940 hauser copies (relative to copies of other hauser instruments) ?
You may be right as you can clearly hear in recordings Bream made with that instrument that it has profoundly deep bass, I’m not sure all Hauser’s sound similar they certainly I belive have different air resonance.

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bacsidoan
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by bacsidoan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:38 pm

souldier wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:12 pm
bacsidoan wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:32 pm
souldier wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:05 pm


I would totally love to see a guitar with a 7cm tall saddle! Imagine the raw power of that bad boy :D
You will be surprised that the effect is not as great as you think. Below is a copy and paste of an experiment by Alan Carruth. He raised the string height from the top to 18 mm which means that the saddle height was even greater than 7 cm:
I actually remember this post from Alan. Although I fail to see how 18mm from the top would lead to a saddle height greater than 7cm, unless you mistook 18mm for 18cm. That would truly be a freak of nature :D
It was an egregious error on my part, but my point is that there’s a limited amount of energy that can be delivered by a pluck, and the classical guitar is already more efficient than a cello in spite of having a much shorter bridge and saddle combo. Just pluck the cello and you’ll see what I mean. In the past I did install a 2 cm saddle on my cheap guitar and play it with a bow. Let’s just say that the power was quite astounding.

astro64
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by astro64 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:35 pm

Hauser only built a few of the instruments with a very low air mode like the 1940 Hauser, this is per interview with Miles Kent that you can find on Youtube. The 1937 Hauser supposedly had an F# box, not as low as the 1940. Some of the more recent interest in building "Hauser copies" developed in part because Bream wanted a copy of that 1940 Hauser, which was not his. I think this effort has included work by Aram, Southwell, Ambridge, and Oldiges. There might be others, such as Ober?

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petermc61
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by petermc61 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:29 am

astro64 wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:35 pm
Hauser only built a few of the instruments with a very low air mode like the 1940 Hauser, this is per interview with Miles Kent that you can find on Youtube. The 1937 Hauser supposedly had an F# box, not as low as the 1940. Some of the more recent interest in building "Hauser copies" developed in part because Bream wanted a copy of that 1940 Hauser, which was not his. I think this effort has included work by Aram, Southwell, Ambridge, and Oldiges. There might be others, such as Ober?
Brian Cohen had the most commissions for Bream for a 1940 replica - nine.

astro64
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by astro64 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:44 am

Ah right, Bream's quest definitely also involved Brian Cohen, was he the first Bream approached?

Portland Bill
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by Portland Bill » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:06 am

I think Bream said that Southwell was the most successful in replicating that 1940, and I believe one of which he hung onto and may even be the only guitar he still owns, photos of his later days back this up, I had the opportunity to buy one of those Cohen Hausers and it was night and day, it reminded me most of a steel string tight and even, nothing like the Southwell but still a lovely guitar.

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petermc61
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by petermc61 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:04 am

Portland Bill wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:06 am
I think Bream said that Southwell was the most successful in replicating that 1940, and I believe one of which he hung onto and may even be the only guitar he still owns, photos of his later days back this up, I had the opportunity to buy one of those Cohen Hausers and it was night and day, it reminded me most of a steel string tight and even, nothing like the Southwell but still a lovely guitar.
Maybe that one had carbon strings installed by somebody. My ‘Bream’ Cohen sounds nothing like that - clear but with wonderful tone, roughly half way between by Ambridge and a ‘61 Hauser 2 I have played.

I guess that just goes to show how much nice guitars can vary but also how hard it is to describe the sound of instruments well.

DanS
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Re: Wanted Hauser Copy

Post by DanS » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:23 am

In these images taken from Steven Law's website (also a Southwell Hauser) the top appears to have a slight concave infront of the bridge too - was the problem worse on the model you played Portland Bill?

Image
Image
Image

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