Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Musical games to help develop improvisational skills.
Tom Wimsatt
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Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:45 am

Here it is. By the way, that's an E at the end of the second voice, not C as indicated.

2018-02-22 20.37.44.jpg
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1989 Takamine C132S, Aquila 19C Strings
Yamaha CG-100A

Jules Wilkins
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Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Jules Wilkins » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:56 am

I had high expectations of you Tom and you did not disappoint, but it seems I need to sleep on the third. I need to consider that you are responsible for ending section A and I must be careful to ensure I leave you with something you can work with, plus I need to remember that we still need a section B that will have to somehow fit in, perhaps as a variation of section A. It is not just a matter of throwing some notes together. You did a good job in measure 2 and I need to be equally good in section 3. I keep playing what we have so far hoping I can figure out where this is going.
"We all need people who will give us feedback. That’s how we improve." — Bill Gates
"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement." — unknown

Tom Wimsatt
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:51 pm
Location: Northern Alabama

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:09 pm

Jules, you might consider something very similar to your first measure (perhaps a slight change to last note or two). Even identical to it would work too.

I'm thinking then the fourth measure would be based on the second, requiring a slight modification to the last note or two, to "sound right ". That is what was /is kind of floating around in my head.

Maybe the B portion could be written in an arpeggio fashion, similar in structure, to Andantino (the first couple of measures anyway). Hope this is useful ( I have no idea if this will work) :shock:
1989 Takamine C132S, Aquila 19C Strings
Yamaha CG-100A

Jules Wilkins
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:12 pm

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Jules Wilkins » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:58 pm

Scream, AARG, I cannot edit this post correctly :oops:
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Last edited by Jules Wilkins on Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"We all need people who will give us feedback. That’s how we improve." — Bill Gates
"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement." — unknown

Tom Wimsatt
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:51 pm
Location: Northern Alabama

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:15 pm

Jules Wilkins wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:58 pm
had it all figured out before reading your comments and thus took none of your ideas, but I think this works well and will allow you to finish part A in a musical fashion.
I hope I am not being mean here. I added a hammer on slur which you can ignore if you wish by just playing the notes, but the glissando is quite another matter. I had to watch some you tube videos before I could execute it in a barely acceptable fashion, but hey, it is a skill we need to acquire eventually and I have complete faith in you. Please accept my pologies if I expect too much and my praise if you exceed my expectations.


[imghttps://www.dropbox.com/s/iume8b5mwr3mybu/D02.PNG?dl=0[/img]
No worries on what you decided to do. I think it sounds great, and is more creative too (I tend to lean too far in the keep-it-simple direction). I'll figure something (else) out based on your latest input.
1989 Takamine C132S, Aquila 19C Strings
Yamaha CG-100A

Jules Wilkins
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:12 pm

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Jules Wilkins » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:21 pm

I cannot figure out how to do show the images now, but the link works.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iume8b5mwr3mybu/D02.PNG?dl=0
"We all need people who will give us feedback. That’s how we improve." — Bill Gates
"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement." — unknown

Jules Wilkins
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:12 pm

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Jules Wilkins » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:30 pm

Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:15 pm
No worries on what you decided to do. I think it sounds great, and is more creative too (I tend to lean too far in the keep-it-simple direction). I'll figure something (else) out based on your latest input.
You did keep the second measure simple, but I think it called for simple. You also added a G# on the first string where others might have put an A, and that was not "simple"...rather it added to the mystery and to some measure dictated the direction I had to take. Keep it up and we will end up with a nice piece even if it stretches our ability to play it well (speaking for myself).
"We all need people who will give us feedback. That’s how we improve." — Bill Gates
"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement." — unknown

Jules Wilkins
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:12 pm

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Jules Wilkins » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:35 pm

Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:09 pm
Maybe the B portion could be written in an arpeggio fashion, similar in structure, to Andantino (the first couple of measures anyway). Hope this is useful ( I have no idea if this will work) :shock:
This idea is very similar to what I had envisaged, though for now I have no idea on how to go about it. Once you finish off A I will know better what direction to take.

I don't think I need to mention it, but do remember that you are currently writing the ending of the entire piece. It must therefore be resolved in some fashion.
"We all need people who will give us feedback. That’s how we improve." — Bill Gates
"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement." — unknown

Tom Wimsatt
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:51 pm
Location: Northern Alabama

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:21 pm

Thanks for changing the last note of the first measure. I doubt it was played (by me) correctly before anyway. I am finally giving in to the lure of software and started using the MuseScore tool. It appears to save time which is a great relief to me. I have also discovered it's fun to play around with (have you tried banjo yet? :lol: )

I personally felt the game thing (improvisation) was getting in the way of practice time. The difficulty of the piece is certainly a good thing, I think it is helping, skill wise.

I'll get something posted shortly. It's easier for me to throw everything I have into something when I'm sold on the benefits. I guess I'm still not 100% on board with this game thing - I'll give it time.
1989 Takamine C132S, Aquila 19C Strings
Yamaha CG-100A

Tom Wimsatt
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:51 pm
Location: Northern Alabama

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:49 pm

Here is my input.

1989 Takamine C132S, Aquila 19C Strings
Yamaha CG-100A

Tom Wimsatt
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:51 pm
Location: Northern Alabama

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:53 pm

2018-02-24 15.52.24.jpg
And here's the score.
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1989 Takamine C132S, Aquila 19C Strings
Yamaha CG-100A

Jules Wilkins
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Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:12 pm

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Jules Wilkins » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:59 pm

Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:21 pm
Thanks for changing the last note of the first measure. I doubt it was played (by me) correctly before anyway. I am finally giving in to the lure of software and started using the MuseScore tool. It appears to save time which is a great relief to me. I have also discovered it's fun to play around with (have you tried banjo yet? :lol: )

I personally felt the game thing (improvisation) was getting in the way of practice time. The difficulty of the piece is certainly a good thing, I think it is helping, skill wise.

I'll get something posted shortly. It's easier for me to throw everything I have into something when I'm sold on the benefits. I guess I'm still not 100% on board with this game thing - I'll give it time.
Please don't feel pressured...take as long as you need from time to time.
A small observation on MuseScore is that I actually discovered that I had to sharpen the second G or else it played it back as natural. :lol:
A couple of quotes from the introduction to this month's lesson:
"I ask every one of the students to take part in at least one of the musical games. If the games proposed seem too difficult for you, it is up to you to suggest new ones, adapted to your level and designed with your own rules." and "Don't forget to practise (sic) the improvisation exercises from Lesson 7 (pages 85, 86) regularly, so that you'll be ready for the next lesson."
I offer those in the spirit of helping you "get on board". This month we were to play the game (not improvisation, but composition) and if I correctly understand what is coming next month's task will include improvisation.

In my opinion improvisation and composition are every bit as important as the more technical oriented work we have thus far been asked to do. I can easily prove my resolve if you look at my submission for D01, lesson 1 where I took a simple exercise and added an ending. I currently end about 50% of my practice sessions with a bit of improvisation, and occasionally I will strike on something that sounds good and it turns into composition. I have been known to spend hours working on a simple composition.

When we do this we are still honing our skills. I still work for example on stretching my pinky to reach to just behind the fret and keeping my thumb in place, and so from a technical point of view it is every bit as valuable as playing a piece by Sor or scale exercises or whatever. As an aside I have not made the piece easy to play, but at the same time I know that while it stretches us it is not beyond our abilities. More importantly it has the added advantage of forcing us to think about and understand such things as music theory. Ultimately it will help us greatly in interpreting that piece by Sor instead of just playing notes on a score. For example, if you look at the first half of my last measure I start with Am which I morph into E7 and to do that I really had to think about what was happening and how I would finger the chords. Even if we end up with a composition that we never want to play or hear again we will have learned much from the journey in terms of what works and what doesn't and (hopefully) why.

In many ways we are similar, but I am realizing that you are more technically inclined and I am more theoretical or interpretive. You will beat yourself up if you miss a note or misread a beat while I will be more upset if I cannot find the music in a piece and make it mine. I am humbled by the effort you put into muting a string with your thumb as instructed which I feel like ignoring because it is too difficult and doesn't seem important to me (even though I know it is important to learn the skill), and that is something I really need to work on and partly why I have so much respect for you. But if you do not see the value in these exercises then I think you are missing an important piece of what is ultimately going to make you a virtuoso.

Ultimately I think we both need to trust our teacher (Delcamp). He has good reason for everything he asks of us even if we do not understand it yet. When I get lazy about damping a string (for example) I am only cheating myself.
"We all need people who will give us feedback. That’s how we improve." — Bill Gates
"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement." — unknown

Tom Wimsatt
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:51 pm
Location: Northern Alabama

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:13 pm

You are correct in your assessment of the two of us. I am reluctant to post anything with mistakes. My picture of a successful guitarist is essentially a "studio musician". I have a sort of build to print mentality in most things (hobbies in particular ). I agree composition (and improvisation ) are important, I just felt it was premature, especially at the D01 level.

To be honest I was worried I was holding things up. Thanks for the encouragement.

By the way, when I put the piece in MuseScore, I was quite impressed with your third measure. Playing it back with the tool helped me see what great work that was. Some day I'll play it smoothly!
1989 Takamine C132S, Aquila 19C Strings
Yamaha CG-100A

Jules Wilkins
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Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Jules Wilkins » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:25 am

I have a small point and a slightly awkward one to share.
The small point is simply that you missed my notation to play the final G# on the second string. Having just executed a glissando up most of the neck it is quite difficult to shift back down immediately to play the G# on the first string, but easy to play it on the second. Going from there you can next play your A also on the second string followed by an open first string for the E as you move back to the first position for the rest of your Am arpeggiated chord.
The awkward point concerns you ending the measure with an EM7 chord.
EM7 (as with any 7th chord) leaves the listener hanging…it begs to be resolved either with AM or Am. There may be other means of resolving it, I have no formal training in music theory, but those are certainly the common means.
There are two possible reasons you ended with EM7. The first is that you did not understand that this measure was to end section A and, given the ABA format, was thus to end the entire piece (it will probably be OK to end B with EM7, depending on what comes before it, as it gets resolved when we go back to section A). The second possibility is that this game is your baptism into improvisation and composure, and given our recent postings that seems the more likely. Forgive me therefore if I am presenting material which you are already well acquainted with. I offer it with the best of intentions.
Bear with me therefore as we examine the three pieces we were assigned this month, noting how each composition starts by introducing the listener to the key and ends by resolving the piece.
Pavene (like our game) is written in Am (harmonic). It starts logically with an Am chord and carries the mystique of that key throughout without the slightest deviation, but then surprises us at the end with an AM chord. It is quite clever really as the piece has the listener sitting on the edge of his seat wondering what lurks around the next corner, but then changes the key to AM as if to say we can relax now, we are safe. (Well, we will be safe once I train my fingers to hit that final chord as well as you managed to nail it. :lol: )
Andantino is written in GM and follows a more classic format by both starting and ending with a GM chord. It is missing the D in the opening chord which is common enough, but it ends with a full GM chord.
Sauteuse is also written in GM. While it essentially starts with just two notes from a GM chord (B and D), it lacks the root G and presents us with every half step between the B and D, and it doesn’t give us the complete GM chord until measure 4 (or 5 if you count the opening partial measure), but while the introduction is creative it nonetheless quickly establishes the key and leave the listener with no doubts. It finishes with a GM scale passage ending with the root note G.
All three pieces therefore clearly resolve themselves in the end, and if we were to look at every other piece we have played we will no doubt be able to come up with a similar analysis.
I have taken the liberty of adding an AM chord to the end of your measure, taking inspiration from Pavene, and also playing it with an Am chord at the end for comparison, but only to show you what I mean. Without one or the other the listener is left hanging, while with it there is resolution. I haven't yet nailed playing your EM7 chord in tempo so do forgive that aspect of my playing, but it is good enough to make the point.
Even with the added AM or Am chord I still find the ending a tad awkward, though not bad and maybe if I play it better it will sound just fine. Still, I know you felt rushed to complete this measure and I wanted to give you an opportunity to rethink it without being under any time pressure. What I don't like is me adding a chord to your measure...I would far rather you "fix" it yourself your way.
Assuming that this theory stuff is new to you, it is noteworthy that you started with a proper Am chord and even though ending in EM7 is not best it is nonetheless a chord that very much belongs in the key. In other words, if you did not know what you were doing in offering these chords then you must have very good instincts.
Think about it and let me know your decision before I start section B.
I am posting my playing of section A to date but with an Am and then an AM chord added to your measure.
"We all need people who will give us feedback. That’s how we improve." — Bill Gates
"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement." — unknown

Tom Wimsatt
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:51 pm
Location: Northern Alabama

Re: Do2, two voices, x players, 1 measure, ABA format, will run til finished.

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:46 pm

Jules, thanks for the chord recommendation. Your instincts are spot on:
1) I had no idea what key Pavane was in. Never even crossed my mind. My main strategy was to play it error free and, with the help of hearing a few sung versions (good 'ole YouTube ), get the dynamics right. By the way, I didn't know that last note was Am. I just thought it was a tough to play note combo.
2) The only time I know what key we're in is when it's defined in subtitles. :shock: Up to this point, I haven't actually payed any attention to that.
3) I have a rudimentary feel for how things should sound and once I figured out what the A harm min scale was, I simply played various notes until I found something which best represented my vision of the piece.
4) I know little if any musical theory. I know this no surprise to you by now. Perhaps you also can see why I initially felt this game was a little premature.

So, I feel like I'm 'drinkin from the firehose right now... I'll take all the help I can get, so thanks again for the suggestion to end the first part of the piece. I was aware of the leaving the listener hanging problem. I'll fix this part and repost using your Aminor recommation. By the way, I didn't know that could be done (Am, AM, versus Aharm-minor note confusion ). I'll figure this out now that I know what to think about........
1989 Takamine C132S, Aquila 19C Strings
Yamaha CG-100A

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