D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Musical games to help develop improvisational skills.
Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:10 pm

Here's my input:
Lucian, your penmanship is good, as you can see I gave up on mine already.... :okok:
2018-03-10 13.00.11.jpg
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Lucian Bistreanu
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Lucian Bistreanu » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:00 pm

Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:10 pm
Here's my input:
Lucian, your penmanship is good, as you can see I gave up on mine already.... :okok:

2018-03-10 13.00.11.jpg

Tom, I do what I can, thank you! Should I be more technical I would do like you :)
Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, it's my understanding (but I don't bet on that) that when we talk about two voices is implied one treble voice and another bass voice ( upper and lower voices, as Jules mentioned them earlier when we stared the game). In your last post I see 8 treble notes (or at least 8 notes played on the treble strings, not sure if is the same thing) and no bass notes (which could be fine with a full rest or pause I think, we can mute one voice during one measure, I guess).
As we already talked about the limit of 4 notes per voice in one measure I'm not sure what your intention was in doing this. I'm pretty sure you didn't mistake treble with bass, so is another thing. Please let me know what it is. :?: :merci:

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:52 pm

Lucian, as I understand voices:
1) They are merely separate lines of music, each one fully accounted for, even though silent (i.e., rests must be included), summing to the time-value of the measure for each "voice".
2) These lines can move (tempo-wise) independently.

They are often referred to as upper and lower voice, but this doesn't mean Base/Treble. Only that both sum properly as mentioned. Incidentally, if you refer Sor's Lesson 10, you'll see several instances of voice 1 and voice 2 actually intersecting.
1989 Takamine C132S, D'Addario Pro-Arté DynaCore (TNH-3T, SDN-3B) strings

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:55 pm

By the way, everything I know (which isn't much really) I learned using Frederick Noad's "Solo Guitar Playing" book. I worked through this book last year. I miss it sometimes... :?

Funny thing about SOR's Lesson 9, Op 60. Its much easier to play than it is to "analyze", because of the use of up to 3 voices in some measures. For example, measures 1-3 use three voices, measure 4 (among others) uses two. Regardless of how many in a given measure, each voice in each measure must sum to the time signature (unless we're talking about the lead-in measures which are summed with the last measure). As I said before, this is how I determine which voices are which when fooling around with a new piece.
Last edited by Tom Wimsatt on Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lucian Bistreanu
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Lucian Bistreanu » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:38 am

Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:52 pm
Lucian, as I understand voices:
1) They are merely separate lines of music, each one fully accounted for, even though silent (i.e., rests must be included), summing to the time-value of the measure for each "voice".
2) These lines can move (tempo-wise) independently.

They are often referred to as upper and lower voice, but this doesn't mean Base/Treble. Only that both sum properly as mentioned. Incidentally, if you refer Sor's Lesson 10, you'll see several instances of voice 1 and voice 2 actually intersecting.
OK, I see your point and I would not disagree with you. After further research I found this: According to the rules of the games we had just two option
"That is to say that the first player produces a musical phrase in mp3, ogg, or video and sets the rules which will regulate the game. Thus he defines the level of difficulty, the number of players, the number of notes that each player should produce in his turn, the duration of the game and lastly he specifies whether the phrases will just follow on from one another (single voice, or monophonic) or whether they should follow with an overlap (single voice or monophonic, with overlaps, thus polyphonic in places)"
And the second option--single voice or polyphonic--is for D04 level. So my proposition was already out of our ligue, mine at least.
Anyway, according to Patrick Sallings in his video and to Allen Mathews in his video
there are, sometimes, three voices in one piece, the mellody--voice 1, the base--voice 2 and the middle voice or inside voice--voice 3.
When I proposed the game, again is my fault that I did not specified it, I thought of just 2 voices, the same for all the game, the mellody--the upper voice--and the bases--the lower voice. Because my ignorance I think I mixed up in in "my first voice" some elements from the middle voice which should not exist because that will make 3 voice and not 2.
I have no intention to change or to recommence so we will continue the game as started, I just want to respect the rule which do not respect the rule :) and keep going with the original two voices, base and the other one(even it is a combination of two different voices) if you don t mind.
What do you think :?:

Lucian Bistreanu
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Lucian Bistreanu » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:38 am

Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:55 pm
By the way, everything I know (which isn't much really) I learned using Frederick Noad's "Solo Guitar Playing" book. I worked through this book last year. I miss it sometimes... :?

Funny thing about SOR's Lesson 10, Op 60. Its much easier to play than it is to "analyze", because of the use of up to 3 voices in some measures. For example, measures 1-3 use three voices, measure 4 (among others) uses two. Regardless of how many in a given measure, each voice in each measure must sum to the time signature (unless we're talking about the lead-in measures which are summed with the last measure). As I said before, this is how I determine which voices are which when fooling around with a new piece.
I don't have lesson 10 Op60, but in lesson VIII Op60, I think I see 3 voices. I marked them in colours and I took a picture. Here it is
PSX_20180311_122946.jpg
Let me know if I'm wrong, this is how I see them, voice 1=melody, voice 2=middle voice, and voice 3=base.
Another thing, I am not sure that the note A in measure 14 belongs to the voice 1 or 2.
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Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:43 pm

Hi Lucian. I'll fix my input and lower the second voice. No problem.

Actually, I meant Sor lesson 9 not 10. Oops.

In your example, I'm not sure there are three voices. I'll look it over and let you know. There are clearly three in row starting with measure #9. If I were trying to split off voices in the first row, I'd be inclined to say there are two voices. I'll check out your video links in any case. I'm sure I'll learn something new!

I honestly don't give this topic much emphasis beyond my own curiosity, since we're playing solo. My understanding of theory is, at best, a work in progress.
Occasionally I split off voices to help me understand tempo or learn the piece.

I'll fix my input. No worries. I sometimes jump into stuff without looking at details. A bad habit I need to break. Sorry about that.
1989 Takamine C132S, D'Addario Pro-Arté DynaCore (TNH-3T, SDN-3B) strings

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:08 pm

Just listened to the Patrick Sallings video. I now see a problem with my submission! I also see why you tried to diagram the Sor piece that way. I think there are two voices (or three in certain areas ) because of the way the beats sum.

Also, I never thought about contrast in a structured way as he presents it. Thanks Lucian!
1989 Takamine C132S, D'Addario Pro-Arté DynaCore (TNH-3T, SDN-3B) strings

Lucian Bistreanu
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Lucian Bistreanu » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:23 pm

Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:43 pm
Hi Lucian. I'll fix my input and lower the second voice. No problem.

Actually, I meant Sor lesson 9 not 10. Oops.

In your example, I'm not sure there are three voices. I'll look it over and let you know. There are clearly three in row starting with measure #9. If I were trying to split off voices in the first row, I'd be inclined to say there are two voices. I'll check out your video links in any case. I'm sure I'll learn something new!

I honestly don't give this topic much emphasis beyond my own curiosity, since we're playing solo. My understanding of theory is, at best, a work in progress.
Occasionally I split off voices to help me understand tempo or learn the piece.

I'll fix my input. No worries. I sometimes jump into stuff without looking at details. A bad habit I need to break. Sorry about that.
I checked Sor lesson 9, and I think that I see 3 voices.
It is mentioned as being a development of lesson 8. That means in lesson 8 are as well 3 voices or not necessarily?

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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Lucian Bistreanu » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:36 pm

Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:08 pm
Just listened to the Patrick Sallings video. I now see a problem with my submission! I also see why you tried to diagram the Sor piece that way. I think there are two voices (or three in certain areas ) because of the way the beats sum.

Also, I never thought about contrast in a structured way as he presents it. Thanks Lucian!
No worries,
The contrast thing was the bonus, I searched for multiple voices in playing classical guitar.
According to my diagram, except for measures 3, 4,7,13 and 14, where are two voices--treble+base for 3,7,13-- and treble+middle for 4, 14--all the rest contain 3 voices.
Is the same with what you see or is different?

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:56 pm

Lucian Bistreanu wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:23 pm
Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:43 pm
Hi Lucian. I'll fix my input and lower the second voice. No problem.

Actually, I meant Sor lesson 9 not 10. Oops.

In your example, I'm not sure there are three voices. I'll look it over and let you know. There are clearly three in row starting with measure #9. If I were trying to split off voices in the first row, I'd be inclined to say there are two voices. I'll check out your video links in any case. I'm sure I'll learn something new!

I honestly don't give this topic much emphasis beyond my own curiosity, since we're playing solo. My understanding of theory is, at best, a work in progress.
Occasionally I split off voices to help me understand tempo or learn the piece.

I'll fix my input. No worries. I sometimes jump into stuff without looking at details. A bad habit I need to break. Sorry about that.
I checked Sor lesson 9, and I think that I see 3 voices.
It is mentioned as being a development of lesson 8. That means in lesson 8 are as well 3 voices or not necessarily?
I noticed the same thing (Lesson 9 and Lesson 8 ). Lesson 8 measure13, and Lesson 9 measure 13 struck me as related. I don't know about the voices, but I can imagine starting with Lesson 9 and simplifying it to get most of what I see, note-wise, in Lesson 8.
1989 Takamine C132S, D'Addario Pro-Arté DynaCore (TNH-3T, SDN-3B) strings

Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:22 pm

Lucian Bistreanu wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:36 pm
Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:08 pm
Just listened to the Patrick Sallings video. I now see a problem with my submission! I also see why you tried to diagram the Sor piece that way. I think there are two voices (or three in certain areas ) because of the way the beats sum.

Also, I never thought about contrast in a structured way as he presents it. Thanks Lucian!
No worries,
The contrast thing was the bonus, I searched for multiple voices in playing classical guitar.
According to my diagram, except for measures 3, 4,7,13 and 14, where are two voices--treble+base for 3,7,13-- and treble+middle for 4, 14--all the rest contain 3 voices.
Is the same with what you see or is different?
I've embedded what I think Lesson 9 looks like, voice-wise. It shows the original, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd voices. Pay no attention to the rests, I couldn't get rid of them. This is not intuitive, but you'll see what I perceive as overlap between voices. Try playing these separate voices. I have found it helpful sometimes.
thumbnail 2.jpg
And, after thinking a little more about "contrast" as noted in the Sallings video, the second voice (in measure 1 for example) represents rhythm and the first and second voices are played slightly louder (with the top voice getting slightly louder perhaps) to give the piece the right feel.
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Lucian Bistreanu
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Lucian Bistreanu » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:00 pm

Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:22 pm
Lucian Bistreanu wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:36 pm
Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:08 pm
Just listened to the Patrick Sallings video. I now see a problem with my submission! I also see why you tried to diagram the Sor piece that way. I think there are two voices (or three in certain areas ) because of the way the beats sum.

Also, I never thought about contrast in a structured way as he presents it. Thanks Lucian!
No worries,
The contrast thing was the bonus, I searched for multiple voices in playing classical guitar.
According to my diagram, except for measures 3, 4,7,13 and 14, where are two voices--treble+base for 3,7,13-- and treble+middle for 4, 14--all the rest contain 3 voices.
Is the same with what you see or is different?
I've embedded what I think Lesson 9 looks like, voice-wise. It shows the original, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd voices. Pay no attention to the rests, I couldn't get rid of them. This is not intuitive, but you'll see what I perceive as overlap between voices. Try playing these separate voices. I have found it helpful sometimes.

thumbnail 2.jpg

And, after thinking a little more about "contrast" as noted in the Sallings video, the second voice (in measure 1 for example) represents rhythm and the first and second voices are played slightly louder (with the top voice getting slightly louder perhaps) to give the piece the right feel.
Tom, I think we are looking at different versions of lesson 9. Here it is what I downloaded from Delcamp site, which is a revision by JFD
PSX_20180311_185235.jpg
As you can see there is no overlapping here. I colored again the 3 voices as I can perceive them. Are they different that your voices :) ?
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Tom Wimsatt
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Tom Wimsatt » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:07 pm

Look at the middle voice (#2), first measure, noted as Voice #1 and #2, in Figure below. There is a 1/8 E note right under the 1/2 E note (which is voice #1 in your drawing). I've shown it here. Your green and yellow bars match my impression of voices 1 and 3. Voice #2 overlaps both at various places in my opinion. Otherwise there would be a rest there (as was done at the start of measure #1, and also circled at the beginning of measure #2).

We'll figure this out .. :okok:
thumbnail3.jpg
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Lucian Bistreanu
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Re: D02 x players, 4 notes, 5 days, 2 voices

Post by Lucian Bistreanu » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:34 pm

Tom Wimsatt wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:07 pm
Look at the middle voice (#2), first measure, noted as Voice #1 and #2, in Figure below. There is a 1/8 E note right under the 1/2 E note (which is voice #1 in your drawing). I've shown it here. Your green and yellow bars match my impression of voices 1 and 3. Voice #2 overlaps both at various places in my opinion. Otherwise there would be a rest there (as was done at the start of measure #1, and also circled at the beginning of measure #2).

We'll figure this out .. :okok:

thumbnail3.jpg
Now I see it. The same note, in the same position with two different times, belonging to two different voices. That's strange. Now my question is how to play that in the same time keeping two different duration for the same note?

I guess, you are right, sooner or later we'll figure it out.

Hopefully :)

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